Letting nature take its course: pecking order establishment/ stress

[Newreeflady]

Well, I got 3 pajama cardinals a week ago. I think two may be pairing up, but not sure. I am sure that they are both out to kill the third, weaker, smaller one. They are in a reef and I cannot get the runt out without removing all of the rock and hunting it down with a net, and this would stress all of the fish. As it stands the alpha and beta are keeping the runt from eating, and stressing it to the point of heavy "breathing" and hiding.

I don't see how I'll get the third out, and they are in with my new toby puffer so I really don't want to freak him out since I've finally got him eating. How long with this go on? Have you let a fish perish in your tank before, knowingly? I'm worried he will get disease due to stress and then give all of the other fish disease. But, then, if I stress all of the fish, then they will all be susceptible, yes? Catch 22?

:/
-A

 

[Henry Colf]

You may want to try adding another one as three's a crowd. I know a guy who had six and they got along fine in a 120. I would have to say that your probably right as the two larger have probably paired up or are going to pair up so adding a fourth to the mix may help.JMO.....

 

[Dave VG]

Henry is right I have read that as well in other threads.

 

[Newreeflady]

Yeah, unfortunately I am not willing to add more- these are in a 20g QT tank and they are all for my main system, which will be fully stocked. I had read as long as they were in odd numbers you could have groups, but the fact that two could pair at any time, and that 3 is a crowd, does make sense. Of course, if you have 5, 2 pairs could form, but I doubt the 5th would be killed off in that case. I guess I'll chalk this one up to lesson learned In the meantime, I figure I'll find him dead soon. That sucks.

 

[Dave VG]

They are in a reef and I cannot get the runt out without removing all of the rock and hunting it down with a net, and this would stress all of the fish.
-A

From what I read above they are allready in the main tank correct? But if they are in a 20 QT that you are stating now what’s the problem with getting it out and finding it a new home?

 

[Newreeflady]

The "QT" tank is a reef- full to the brim with rock. Would have to pull all of it out and it would stress the other fish. That is the problem. :/

 

[Paradiddle7]

Try a fish trap, or make your own out of a 2 Liter bottle. As long as he's willing to eat, you can catch him. I've used fish traps to get wrasses and other hard to catch fish and it has never taken me more than 20-30 minutes for any fish (assuming he is healthy enough to eat. Place the trap as close as you can to where he's hiding, using your net to scare the other fish to the other side of the tank, so they don't get into the trap and then just wait. Be patient and careful and you'll get him.

 

[Newreeflady]

He's not willing to eat- hasn't eaten in days.

 

[albano]

Letting nature take its course: pecking order establishment/ stress ...

I am sure that they are both out to kill the third, weaker, smaller one.

Have you considered that they are trying (and succeeding) to stress YOU out! :eek1:

 

[Newreeflady]

Have you considered that they are trying (and succeeding) to stress YOU out! :eek1:

Yes, I have considered that:hammer::hammer::hmm6: It's working!

 

[Newreeflady]

Update

Update

In case anyone was interested, last weekend I pulled all the rock out and put the little guy (and my toby puffer) into the 56g (the other two PJ cardinals are still together in the 20g.) The little PJ cardinal didn't eat in the 56g for a few days (already wasn't eating, so for a total of a week no food) and he hid behind the overflow. Today he just now decided to start coming out from back there and swimming up in the corner area. He just ate some brine. So, yay, guess he's gotten over the trauma of being beaten up by the others. None of the fish in his new tank seem to mind his presence, either, which is great! :dance:


-A

 

[albano]

In case anyone was interested,... So, yay, guess he's gotten over the trauma of being beaten up by the others.
-A

You did the right thing, and saved a life!:thumbsup:

 

[tmz]

I know bangai cardinals will kill members of the same sex. They are very hard to tell apart at least for me. Folks buy 3 with good odds of getting a male female pair.( I forgot the probablility formula but I think there are 8 combinations of male female and only 2 of the 8 cominations would be 3 of the same sex. With four ,it would be 16 combinations with only 2 with 4 of the same sex). The third is usually killed if not removed. Probably the same with pajamas. I got 2 bangais for my 120 and 1 killed the other within a week wish I tried 3 or 4. That was several years ago and the agressor is still going strong but without a mate.

 

[Newreeflady]

Albano- yes, it did feel good to get him out of there. I was waiting because I didn't want to freak out the puffer fish as when I first got him he didn't eat and I had just gotten him eating and then this problem occurred. Would've hated to see him go back into hiding and not eating mode. Since he was fine for a week, I figured he'd be OK so I could go ahead and do the deed. It's good to see him establishing in the new system- I was very concerned, but now I'm sure he'll be fine. He's coming out more and more.

I know bangai cardinals will kill members of the same sex. They are very hard to tell apart at least for me. Folks buy 3 with good odds of getting a male female pair.( I forgot the probablility formula but I think there are 8 combinations of male female and only 2 of the 8 cominations would be 3 of the same sex. With four ,it would be 16 combinations with only 2 with 4 of the same sex). The third is usually killed if not removed. Probably the same with pajamas. I got 2 bangais for my 120 and 1 killed the other within a week wish I tried 3 or 4. That was several years ago and the agressor is still going strong but without a mate.

Yeah, I felt like I did my research. Was told they should be bought in odd numbers, but no one ever said "except 3". I guess I should've thought for myself instead of just listening to the odd number rule. (doh!)

The two in the 20g that were beating up the 3rd still bicker amongst themselves, but it is nothing like the way they were trying to kill off the third. I'm assuming this is just pairing up bickering, kinda like clownfishes, but of course I don't really know. They hang together sometimes, then they don't, then the dominant chases for a moment the submissive, or otherwise asserts dominance by "backing up" from in front of the submissive. These two are being traded off this weekend to a semi-local. Hopefully they will pair, and work out for him- they are good eaters for sure!

Thanks for reading more on the adventures in Angela's aquatic world, haha. :lol2: