LFS and AEFW

[bigbuckdown]

So i bought a couple acros from a LFS a few days ago ,brought them home and dipped. Within 30 seconds of the dip the worms started coming off so automatically I bag them up bring the dip bowl with me and ask for my money back which they did give to me. Wouldnt you know i see the kid bring the frags back and put them back in the display. I said dude they have AEFW and his response was who doesnt. What do I do? I have been shopping there for years. Do i write it on my local forum, stay quiet just dont know what to think of this whole thing. Dont want to hurt the guys business but also dont want fellow reefers to get and be aware that if they bought they may be in trouble. On the LFS forum he has them all up for sale still

 

[trinity1012]

um that's not right,you spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on your tank.u need to say something.those will wipe out entire reef tanks.he dosent keep them long enough in his tanks to see it happen im sure.i feel bad for everyone who shops for coral at your lfs.my corals are guaranteed pest free.steve tyree also guarantees pest free corals.
if it were me I would let people know for sure!!!!!!!! I would find another lfs if you can!

 

[bigswordy]

gotta speak up and if others wish to still shop there thats their decision... but you would feel bad if someone got them and they destroyed their tank.

 

[trinity1012]

exactly!!!!

 

[bigbuckdown]

Yeah i know man but its hard especially knowing the owner for so long. Maybe he doesnt know he is mostly behind the scenes. Let me talk to him first and see what happens

 

[trinity1012]

if he dosent know because he isn't there a lot of the time that's different.you should talk to him,seems like you have a good relationship with the owner.
it wouldn't hurt to ask him if he knows.but if he dose know...well,well,well.....lol

 

[MammothReefer]

I know this isn't going to be the most popular post but I disagree. I don't believe retailers or wholesalers for that matter should be explicitly responsible for pest removal/prevention. It would make for an extremely difficult business model. The means of which we have to remove pests is just to primitive, 1 dip isn't enough. We the consumer should be more discerning and assume that all corals have pests until we know otherwise. Now I'm not saying this is always the case. Specialty shops that say focus more on captive raised and the propagation of corals it makes sense for them. For me there is a higher expectation of not receiving pest from a shop like that, but not for your typically LFS or online retailer selling maricultured, or wild pieces.

Think about your typical shop they are getting delivery of new corals several times a week and when it comes to acropora in most cases they are going to look there best the sooner you can put them on display and get them in front of the customer. These shops are paying a premium for "ultra" and better looking acropora to offer to you. If they were going to QT, and dip every piece they would be sitting on corals for months and they would need many separate systems to separate the corals based on the timing of there arrival so they don't recontaminate something that has already been QT'd. At say just 2 shipments a week that is a lot of separate systems. At this point the chances of the corals looking as they did on arrival is rather slim in unstable LFS waters (they are always messing with there systems with corals going in and out) all those "ultra" colorful corals are now brown, and a good chunk of them are dead or dieing and there is no way for them to recoup the time and money they have invested. Margins would be dismal if not non existent. There would be no reason to buy anything (as a dealer) but browned out cheap acros and hope they colour up, but if all you are bringing in is browned out acros the majority of your customers are just going to go some where else where they can checkout & buy the eye candy.

If there was a cheap, easy, quick way to deal with pests via a single application sure but until that happens it just makes more sense for us the consumer who maybe buys a couple corals a months to deal with it.

 

[trinity1012]

I agree with what you just said,but I think he was concerned about the fact that the kid put the coral back into a display tank up for sale. I gatherd that the owner dosent know that and the worker don't care. just my 2 cents

 

[MammothReefer]

What else would he do with it?

 

[Acronic]

Its safe to say that system is already infested. Anyone dealing with acros is bound to come across them eventually.

 

[Piper27]

I agree with mammoth reefer. Only because the op said he has always shopped there and this sounds like a new problem. If the system has been infected for a while and they are not attempting to resolve it thsts different.
I have seen a lot of pests and bad practices at a certain store but I am just not going back. And anyone who asks gets my opinion about it. But as much as I hate it I won't post it on a local forum to ruin their buisness.

 

[trueblackpercula]

I experiences this as well bought a beautiful Sps colony went home dip it and the aefw were all ove the bottom of the cup it was in. I was so disgusted that I ended up throwing the piece out. I know that was bad but I don't have a quartine tank and was not going to set one up. Now as for telling the owner well I didn't and proabally should have but what would that have done? Nothing in my opinion, so I told another reefer what happened and suggested I mention it. Well I felt at the time that if I put it on the internet his already dying business would die and I didn't wNt to be that guy.

So I truly believe that it is the responsbilty of us reef keepers to treat our own corals. Trust a company that tells you they are pest free means what? Nothing because you are still going to dip the coral. Yes it's nice to see pest free Sps but let's be real here when a store has 100 or 200 frags and colonies commingled in a week how could they possibly dip and treat all of them??? Imposable

So lesson learned and we all need to be educated enough on what to buy and from where.

I agree with mammothreeefer on this one.

 

[bogg]

Aefw big deal... their beatable
I would have put the coral right into my display after dipping
Wrasses basting and scraping manual removal their gone

 

[sirreal63]

You should realistically expect any coral you buy at an LFS or online retailer to have pests. I try to avoid buying except from people I know but if you do buy from a source you are not positive about, expect pests and treat for them proactively.

You absolutely should make a thread on your local forum so others in your club do not get something they do not know about. Since you know the owner of the LFS he needs to be aware of it as well. I highly doubt he will not care and he will be glad you let him know. If he doesn't care or is offended then you know who you and your friends do not want to buy from.

 

[MammothReefer]

Why would you boycott a vendor that has AEFW or any pest for that matter? Unless they are in the business of growing corals so they aren't worried about moving pieces as they show up. There is just no way feasible way for them to prevent it with the volume of corals moving in and out of the store. I can't think of a single vendor that I have bought Mari, or wild pieces from that hasn't had a pest on them at some point from the best to the worst, and the same goes with wholesalers.

 

[sirreal63]

If I knew the grocery store was selling fish filets that had worms in them, would I buy fish for my family to eat from them? If I knew this and let them know and they decided to do nothing would I buy anything from them again? If I let them know and they decided to change procedures to ensure no filets reached the case that were not inspected for worms before hand, then I would have more confidence buying from them.

In almost 10 years of corals I have had redbugs once, no other coral pest, no fish in any of the numerous display tanks I have set up have ever developed ich. I did have one fish who got ich overnight in QT, but nothing in my display. I have worked too hard to keep pests out to jeopardize the tank.

IMO it would be irresponsible to not let everyone know that the are AEFW in the LFS's tanks, including the LFS. Too many people assume the corals they buy have no pests, this is perhaps why so many people have been fighting with them. I have bought maricultured corals from several LFS's, I made the assumption that they had pests and treated them proactively. The easiest way to avoid pests is to develop a group of friends who also go to extremes to keep their tanks clean. It isn't about boycotting anyone, it is about doing the most you can for the health of your tank. I will be placing a nice little LiveAquaria order soon, I fully plan to treat and QT all of them before they get to the display.

 

[MammothReefer]

Sure I get what you are saying but that analogy is a bit harsh. Would you ever want to eat a fish fillet that once had worms in it, even if you removed them? Probably not. If I saw an amazing acro that was exactly what I was looking for but had flatworms would I buy it? Of course I would, and I would treat it and then add it to my tank.

But if I didn't buy from every place I ever got a pest from I would never be able to buy from any where. I think it's unrealistic to expect the retailer to absorb the cost of infected or potentially infected pieces, without charging a premium of some kind. The current business model of most LFS can't support to bring in acroporas if they are now responsible for pest management and the way the stores work it's all about moving volume, undercutting prices, and capitalizing on the rare few pieces that "wow". People want big sps cheap. If not they go captive raised. I personally hold corals farmers to a higher standard. They are the "experts" not LFS owners. Their business depends on being pest free and being able to grow corals quickly and colorfully. If I received AEFW in that situation I would definitely bring it up, but to go to a LFS and say hey this piece has AEFW even if they did take it back and treat it..the next day the new shipment is going to have AEFW again so what's the point they would just be throwing money away to provide us with acros.

I agree if everybody treated and was aware then none of us would have issues, or if you only trade among a tight circle of trusted people.

What we really need is an in tank treatment.

 

[sirreal63]

The problem will continue to grow until we hold the supply chain at least partially responsible for the corals they pass down the line. This won't happen of course and nothing will change, except it will get worse, until the consumer holds his hand up and says, "I won't buy your corals if they are not clean". This problem is far more severe today than it was 10 years ago, what can we do to make it better in the next 10 years? Do we even want to or are we ok with letting it get worse? I can certainly see the next wave of marketing being "Certified Pest Free" and yes it will cost more and people will pay it. I have been fortunate to personally know a lot of LFS owners. I only know of one who would be ok with selling corals with pests. The other dozen or so would want to know because good LFS's understand the power of word of mouth and actually care about the hobby, it is their living. How much does it really cost us to treat our corals before going in our system? For the LFS it would not really be that expensive and in the long run cheaper than bad publicity and a marketing strategy that would pay off. Would you prefer to buy corals from an LFS that you knew treated before the sale or one that couldn't care less? The LFS is absolutely responsible for the corals it sells, just as we as individuals are responsible for the corals we trade or sell.

Ultimately we have the responsibility for what goes in our tanks. To anyone who is living with AEFW now, would you like to go back to that day and not put that coral in your tank? My guess is you would. If you got that coral from someone you know, and they knew it was infected, and didn't bother to tell you, would you be ok with that? If you bought that coral from a supplier who knew it was infected and did nothing to stop it, would you really be ok with that?

Maybe I am just wrong for wanting to see this problem get resolved. I can say that after tearing apart a very well developed 6' tank loaded with acro's to treat for red bugs once, I will do whatever I can so that I never have to do that again. I was not ok with treating in the display and risking the loss of an established pod population and biological filtration. Removing the acro's was the only way to achieve my goal. I may not get the flavor of the month coral but I also won't be risking the corals I already have just to get the latest and greatest.

We are responsible for what we put in our tanks. If you cannot trust in your source, you better be ready to treat your corals and QT them. The problem will not go away by itself. I agree we need an in tank treatment that works, but we don't have it yet.

 

[MammothReefer]

Sure If I could have found the piece/pieces I got AEFW from I would have changed it and made a different choice but I don't blame the dealer for me getting AEFW.

It's a volume thing. We can treat the 1 or 2 corals we buy a month or every other month a lot easier and cheaper. A store or wholesaler would have to treat 100s if not 1000s of corals every week. Unless I went to a store and saw a huge bin of corals that said "not for sell QT system" them I wouldn't believe that anything I got from them is pest free. I just can't picture in my head retailers, or wholesalers sitting on live stock for 6 weeks+ to QT and treat them unless it's something they specialize in and charge a premium for. Most stores wouldn't have the floor space. To be profitable you need a specific amount of corals for sale at any time, and then you would need to have new corals coming out of QT to replace those that are sold on almost a daily basis. Essentially you would need a separate system for every week something is in QT if you want to be able to release pest free corals on regular intervals.

Personally if I was going to open a store again I would offer my corals at different prices based on where they are in the QT process. You want them the same day I get them shipped - here you go best value but buyer be warned. If I'm going to QT, treat, and take all the risk of acros not adapting to captivity them I'm going to need to charge a premium.

The point I'm trying to make is I don't think it's fair to slag a LFS for having pests. It's a a part of the hobby. Imagine if every dealer dipped every coral. The losses would be huge. Many healthy corals can't handle the dips we are doing. It's really hit or miss with some species.

 

[cFloor]

Personally, after my previous system getting pests, I assume all corals I buy have the potential to have them, or even eggs which our dips do not seem to kill. I now QT, with weekly dips, every piece I buy no matter how reputable the source. It seems to be a relatively small cost in this rather expensive hobby we are in, although I do understand for some that space may be an issue.