LFS and AEFW

[MammothReefer]

It's not a fair comparison. Look at the differences between the industries. Dogs are mammals, corals are treated like plants, and fish are treated like food. We don't hold them to the same esteem./QUOTE]


I would not buy a dog with heart worms, or a plant with Aphids on it. Why are corals different? I do not understand why people accept this as just being part of the hobby. I will boycott anyone who knowingly passes on pests to our community.

Why not? If you can treat it what is the issue? Should we just euthanize anything that isn't perfect instead? Pests is such a relative term as well. I lived with AEFW for 3 years and my tank thrived. It may not have been ideal but I didn't enjoy my tank any less...but that's a whole different topic. As far as why are corals different? I've outlined that in my previous posts.

 

[jda]

I don't know if the LFS should treat the stuff, or not, but now that they know, they need to label them as such. This is 100% on the reefer to control their own tanks, but I also don't think that store owners should get a pass that KNOW that they have pests.

I buy angelfish knowing that they probably have flukes... or tangs knowing that they probably have ich. I take care of this. If I buy coral, I assume that it has pests, so I dip, QT and keep some Halichoeres or Macropharyngodon wrasses in the display just in case some get through.

You can pay more for frags/corals from people who dip and stuff. It is worth it IMO, but not everybody agrees.

 

[sirreal63]

While in principle what your are suggesting sounds great the logistics of it are impossible. You are asking every LFS, wholesaler, and every hand a coral might touch from the ocean to our hands to now become expert level reef keepers with the capability to hold, maintain, and treat, acropora for up to 6 weeks per stop.

The logistics are not impossible, just difficult. Saying there is no solution is a sure way to make sure there will not be a solution. It was once thought to be impossible to even keep Acro's alive in a tank, but it wasn't impossible, someone figured out a way to do it. That never would have happened if everyone took the mindset that it was impossible.

Learning about pests is a part of learning about keeping SPS. I'm just glad these days we know what is eating our corals because when I first got into SPS, AEFW and Monti eating nudis were unheard of by most of us. SPS is the most challenging aspect of reef keeping. It's not for everybody. The commitment we need to make in terms of time, money, and equipment is bigger and riskier then all other aspects of the hobby (maybe not NPS).

I remember a time when you could walk into a LFS, buy a coral, put it in your tank and not worry about what may be on it. The redbugs I got came from a friend who didn't know he had them, or was giving away free samples of them. We know a lot more today than we did 10 years ago, and unless we stop trying to improve the hobby we will not know more in the next 10 years.

I guess to me what it boils down to is. If you are going to dip, and qt every piece you get from wherever you get it. What does it matter if the LFS does the same? What does it matter if the coral has pests, or doesn't. If you treat them all like they do then the end result is the same.
What if the LFS wasn't getting them in the first place? What would happen if people started saying "I will not buy your corals unless I know that everything possible has been done to prevent pests"? What would happen is suppliers would start losing sales and either take the matter with some seriousness or they will be replaced by suppliers that do. It is really simple, the demand dictates the supply, in virtually every business. We would still treat and QT, if we are smart, but the pre-existing damage will be lessened. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

It matters because corals are being impacted and damaged from the first bite taken by AEFW, so damage is being done long before we get them. Would it be better to just treat cancer or find a way to prevent it? I cannot imagine anyone who has been in the business being ok with pests being sent down the line. Do we really think it is a good thing to have the entire chain infected before the corals reach us? Is that really acceptable? Why is it acceptable in the coral trade and not in any other animal related trade? Perhaps because far too many just do not care and think it is impossible to do anything about?

The person or company who finds a way to offer pest free corals and fish will make a killing because people will pay for it. It should not be a time thing, in the timber business you have to keep your stock healthy and growing for decades before it becomes economically viable, that has not stopped timber companies from doing business, or making a profit or finding a way to produce trees.

 

[FoothillCorals]

Why not? If you can treat it what is the issue? Should we just euthanize anything that isn't perfect instead? Pests is such a relative term as well. I lived with AEFW for 3 years and my tank thrived. It may not have been ideal but I didn't enjoy my tank any less...but that's a whole different topic. As far as why are corals different? I've outlined that in my previous posts.

The point I was trying to make was that it is not right for people to KNOWINGLY infect others with out disclosure. If my tank had RBs or AEFWs I would never try to sell frags to fellow reefers with out letting them know. I understand that there are pests and it is not practical for LFS to be 100% pest free. But there are some in this hobby with more integrity that others.

I am sorry I quoted you in my first post, this is in no way personal or directed at you.

 

[Allmost]

Does Liveaquaria QT their maricultured corals ?

do they QT their fish ?

 

[sirreal63]

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=377

Yes but they do not really go into specifics on what dip they use, I would still dip and QT their stock. I never really went searching their website for this information, they should be shouting at extreme intensity. They say they treat and QT for 2-4 weeks.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/media/players/video.cfm?videoid=66

They are one of the few online places I will buy coral and I feel better knowing they do this. I will still dip and QT corals and hope everyone else does as well. Considering their coral section keeps growing, it would appear that it isn't too much of a financial burden on them. Which also brings up the point that if our LFS's do not also diligently keep their systems clean then it won't matter if they get pest free corals or not, they will still be selling someone an infected coral, it just got infected in their care. That is why we need to make sure the LFS knows they have a problem.

 

[Allmost]

exactly my point, aquacultured corals [the first link is for Aquacultured corals] are pest free most of the times, where as wild corals, not so much.

from Live aquaria :
Not everyone quarantines their livestock prior to putting it in their system. This of course can lead to the introduction of pest organisms or algae that can become a major headache down the road. Red bugs, Acropora eating flatworms (AEFW), and red Planaria flatworms are just three of the common hitch hiking pests that can find their way into your reef aquarium and do some damage. At the very least they are annoying. So, following proper procedure, you can prevent the pests from entering into your system where they can become a full blown problem.

© 2009 Foster & Smith, Inc. Reprinted as a courtesy and with permission from http://www.LiveAquaria.com

there must have been cases of ppl getting AEFW, or LA would have never made this "disclaimer" right ?

pests are just part of buying wild corals.

buying small, 0.5" aquacultured frags, have a MUCH better chance of being pest free.

I have dealth with AEFW and RB ... all my fault, I buy wild corals and just put them in DT ...

I agree though the LFS should be told, but cant expect them to close doors to public until all sorts of pests are gone, it just wont happen, and as you see, even the best ones out there tell us there is a chance that a AEFW or ICH or something may make it past their QT procedure.

" All our Aquacultured Corals are held, quarantined, and shipped from our state-of-the-art facility in Rhinelander, WI. " from DD site.

at the end, if you buy wild corals, you are risking pests, if you mingle with strangers, you also would increase the risk of pests there are ways around it to be "safer" but they are not 100%. we have to take the responsibility to be safe, and not blame other side. or stay with Aquacultured corals.

 

[sirreal63]

The notice from LA is legal protection, and is just sound business practice in our litigious society.

I don't think anyone has advocated not treating and QT'ing any coral before introduction in your tank. Did I miss something? Wouldn't any of us prefer to see nothing come off our corals after a dip, it would be a good thing, not a bad thing to buy a coral that was healthy and clean. A good LFS would appreciate the heads up and clean their system, a bad one would want that fact to remain hidden. They will get better PR from saying "we have a problem and are fixing it." than they would from trying to hide it or doing nothing. I have friends who frag just to sell to the LFS, if the LFS was loaded with AEFW and infected the corals they just sold, they also have a stake in what happens. The LFS doesn't have to close their doors, few make decent profits on livestock, it is the drygoods and service that bring profit margin.

What LA does is a good thing, and it explains why they have a 14-30 day guarantee on livestock. Imagine what would happen if everyone did that?

 

[Allmost]

thats for aquacultured corals.

I just dont think any store can claim all their wild corals are 100% pest free.

maybe in future with better dips, and understanding of the pests.

 

[sirreal63]

14 days for any coral or fish, 30 for the CCGC.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=23

 

[Allmost]

sorry I edited my post above

yes, 30 days alive. I have never lost a coral to AEFW in 30 days though. it has spread to ALL my corals in my DT though.

anyways, we have different opinions on this .

 

[sirreal63]

Differing opinions is a good thing, it is how learning and growth are accomplished.

 

[Moser]

I use it. I like it better then Bayer. I don't know if it really kills the eggs or not but I know it kills AEFW and I've had a higher survival rate with corals that I dip in RPS then any other dip.

It was going to come to UK, but never made it.
Anyone in New Orleans tell me any good lfs that I can visit in November and pick some of this up also?"¦

Thanks
Mo

 

[Moser]

Looking at the chain of custody for a minute. These pests did not originate in our tanks and work their way back to the importers and wholesalers tanks. It happened the other way, the pests are coming into the hobby from the wholesale level. If these holding tanks are now a breeding place for pests and we do nothing to prevent it, what is the end result?

Simply for math sake, say if 1 in 100 corals comes into a trans ship or holding facility infected with a pest. It goes into a vat that is breeding pests because it has not been continually eradicated of pests. You can expect that now a very large percentage of the corals coming from that facility have pests, that they did not have before. Now every portion of the supply chain down the line also has these pests. While I would hope that the wholesaler would employ methods to keep their tanks clean, they don't really have any incentive to do so. How sad is that? If the pests are not dealt with at the earliest opportunity to do so then the problem will only grow. You can swat bees all day long but until you remove the nest you are simply wasting your time.

I spent my 30 year career in manufacturing, wholesale, distribution and retail. Our sawmill owned it's own timber base, as most large sawmills do, and we managed it to be sustainable. This included pest management, because it was vital to protecting our monetary base, the timberlands. It would be unthinkable to do anything different.



The oil analogy is a great one, no matter ow many times you change the oil to get metal shavings out that bearing will never get better and will only get worse. This is why the pest problem in the hobby has got worse, no one is correcting the problem, only treating the symptom. The whole point is that it has to start somewhere, and if it doesn't start at the beginning of the supply chain it will never be corrected or even reduced.

You make many assumptions.

Firstly the pest originates in the ocean and many mari-cultured colonies carry pests. The wholesalers tanks are infected from the same source as potential lfs and hobbyist tanks.
Collector stations or collectors are in no way equipped to be dipping thousands of corals. To suggest so, is being naive about the situation.

You also assume that wholesalers continually stock SPS only in their tanks.
What if they go through waves of corals, say SPS for two months, followed by LPS for a few months. If they switched holding tanks like this every couple of months, would that not help eradicate AEFW from their tanks?… possibly.

Many reefers don't actually dip, yet have no visible pests in their SPS tanks- what is your explanation for this?…

Cheers
Mo

 

[MammothReefer]

It was going to come to UK, but never made it.
Anyone in New Orleans tell me any good lfs that I can visit in November and pick some of this up also?"¦

Thanks
Mo

I've never seen in a LFS. The company that makes it is pretty small company. I would think your best bet would be to just order it online. If you to the site they list the vendors that sell it.

 

[Moser]

Thanks…
Anywhere worth visiting in New Orleans?.

Mo

 

[sirreal63]

You make many assumptions.

Firstly the pest originates in the ocean and many mari-cultured colonies carry pests. The wholesalers tanks are infected from the same source as potential lfs and hobbyist tanks.
Is it not already known that the pests originated in the ocean? They would stay in the ocean if the corals were not collected. They are collected and they are introduced to the supply chain.

Collector stations or collectors are in no way equipped to be dipping thousands of corals. To suggest so, is being naive about the situation.

Perhaps they should be, to suggest that it is impossible for them to proactive about the problem is simply wrong. To try and eradicate the pests at the earliest possible point is the only way to keep them from proliferating. If the earliest point is a trans ship or wholesale facility then would that not be acceptable? A diver on a boat will probably not, but that coral changes hands several times before we see it.

You also assume that wholesalers continually stock SPS only in their tanks.
What if they go through waves of corals, say SPS for two months, followed by LPS for a few months. If they switched holding tanks like this every couple of months, would that not help eradicate AEFW from their tanks?"¦ possibly.

It could help but I doubt there are many times where there are no broken frags in the bottoms of holding tanks. Even broken remnants of the previous shipment can harbor the pests.

Many reefers don't actually dip, yet have no visible pests in their SPS tanks- what is your explanation for this?"¦

I never did either, until I had to treat my tanks. Not dipping and QT'ing is Russian Roulette these days. Many people don't QT fish and never have an ich outbreak either, it doesn't mean they will not some day. Many people drive 100+ on the interstate and never get in an accident, it doesn't mean they won't at some point, just that they haven't yet.

Cheers

Cheers to you too Mo. :beer:
Mo

My whole point is if nothing is done, nothing will be done. There is a reason why this problem is growing, not enough is being done to prevent it. Kudos to DFS for making the attempt to bring clean corals to us. As a community of responsible reefers do we really just want to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rising incidence of pests? I don't think that is what anyone is suggesting, but it sure does sound that way.

 

[MammothReefer]

You make many assumptions.

Firstly the pest originates in the ocean and many mari-cultured colonies carry pests. The wholesalers tanks are infected from the same source as potential lfs and hobbyist tanks.
Collector stations or collectors are in no way equipped to be dipping thousands of corals. To suggest so, is being naive about the situation.

You also assume that wholesalers continually stock SPS only in their tanks.
What if they go through waves of corals, say SPS for two months, followed by LPS for a few months. If they switched holding tanks like this every couple of months, would that not help eradicate AEFW from their tanks?… possibly.

Many reefers don't actually dip, yet have no visible pests in their SPS tanks- what is your explanation for this?…

Cheers
Mo

They don't rotate like that. Each day they receive shipments from different collection sites. We knew if we wanted bali corals we would on Thursday, and so on. I used to spend a lot of time lurking around the wholesalers and cherry picking things as they came in. It's pretty crazy the first couple of times and don't wear any shoes that you don't want stained in salt water. Most of the best stuff doesn't stick around for more then a few seconds between the cherry pickers, and the reps they are all taking the top notch stuff and setting it aside before it even hits the holding bins. It pretty much goes straight from the box to being sold. With that said anything worth buying isn't going to be lurking around in the bins at wholesalers festering with other infected corals all the rest of the stuff though gets moved into bins, and then slowly into the discount section as it browns or rtn's.

On a side note I've gotten aefw from DD. Like I said I've pretty much got them from every vendor I've ever bought from. Inspect, dip, and/or qt everything, and if you don't deal with the consequences like I did. The real trick is to avoid pieces that are commonly infested as most AEFW tend go for specific species in my experience.

 

[bigbuckdown]

I use it. I like it better then Bayer. I don't know if it really kills the eggs or not but I know it kills AEFW and I've had a higher survival rate with corals that I dip in RPS then any other dip.

How do you use this dip? I read that you still need a QT with this dip because its almost impossible to get the excess residue off. I heard that putting corals back in without QT them first will end up killing inverts

 

[Moser]

You make many assumptions.

Firstly the pest originates in the ocean and many mari-cultured colonies carry pests. The wholesalers tanks are infected from the same source as potential lfs and hobbyist tanks.
Is it not already known that the pests originated in the ocean? They would stay in the ocean if the corals were not collected. They are collected and they are introduced to the supply chain.

Collector stations or collectors are in no way equipped to be dipping thousands of corals. To suggest so, is being naive about the situation.

Perhaps they should be, to suggest that it is impossible for them to proactive about the problem is simply wrong. To try and eradicate the pests at the earliest possible point is the only way to keep them from proliferating. If the earliest point is a trans ship or wholesale facility then would that not be acceptable? A diver on a boat will probably not, but that coral changes hands several times before we see it.

You also assume that wholesalers continually stock SPS only in their tanks.
What if they go through waves of corals, say SPS for two months, followed by LPS for a few months. If they switched holding tanks like this every couple of months, would that not help eradicate AEFW from their tanks?"¦ possibly.

It could help but I doubt there are many times where there are no broken frags in the bottoms of holding tanks. Even broken remnants of the previous shipment can harbor the pests.

Many reefers don't actually dip, yet have no visible pests in their SPS tanks- what is your explanation for this?"¦

I never did either, until I had to treat my tanks. Not dipping and QT'ing is Russian Roulette these days. Many people don't QT fish and never have an ich outbreak either, it doesn't mean they will not some day. Many people drive 100+ on the interstate and never get in an accident, it doesn't mean they won't at some point, just that they haven't yet.

Cheers

Cheers to you too Mo.
Mo




My whole point is if nothing is done, nothing will be done. There is a reason why this problem is growing, not enough is being done to prevent it. Kudos to DFS for making the attempt to bring clean corals to us. As a community of responsible reefers do we really just want to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rising incidence of pests? I don't think that is what anyone is suggesting, but it sure does sound that way.

It's starting to become a circular argument.

The point is that if huge quarantine stations are introduced at many points in the supply chain, the cost will make the industry unviable and it this cost that is prohibitive, not necessarily the desire to do it.

Imagine as just stated that corals that are currently cherry picked right from the collection buckets, could not be selected for 6 weeks until after qt when brown and half dead. They wouldn't be desirable anyway...

How many corals would die and what public uproar would it cause because the industry was killing our coral reefs.... The response to fish collection is bad enough already.

We all wish it was done, but realistically, how could it be done without crippling the coral collection industry?.

If we get that dip that cleans a coral of all pests and eggs, then this would all be over....

Mo