Lieutenant Tang freaking out during hypo.

palmer373

palmer373

New member
I'm currently hypoing my 75 before i move those fish into a 125. I reached 1.009SG on the 22nd, it's been one week. All signs of Ich have greatly decreased but the lieutenant tang started freaking out today. By freaking out I mean sitting in one corner, or by his cave, breathing rapidly, and all of a sudden burst from one side of the 75, to the other, smashing his face into the glass, shooting the other way, trying to jump out of the tank and smash his face into the glass hood (I'm happy I have them!!) then going back to a corner. So far he has done that 4 times today, the most recent 2 minutes ago. The skin on the front of his face and the top lip is starting to rub off.

I have a lieutenant tang, powder blue tang, scopas tang, 2) yellowtail damsels, a fiji blue devil damsel, and a cleaner wrasse, and none of the other fish have been remotely acting like this. The lieutenant is breathing about 3 times faster than the scopas.

Does anyone have a remote idea of what could be causing this? I was thinking ich is infested in his gills but i thought i would either see the ich on his skin or the other tangs would be displaying similar symptoms. Another thought is it could possibly be HLLE but could that cause the 'freaking out'? My first thought would have been HLLE if i didn't witness him ramming his face into the glass wall and top.

The lieutenant has been through hypo twice and the same with prazipro. I added him in with the scopas, who wasn't QTed, so im redoing the hypo and prazi. Shouldn't the scopas be the one that is freaking out cause he hasn't been QTed??

I'm confused and freaking out since i don't want to lose him, any help is appreciated!
 
Temperature? Likely has ich in his gills. Those three tangs in a 75 or 125 is not good judgement. So what is going to convince you that QT is a good idea?
 
Could be ammonia poisoning. Check your levels, then check Nitrites. If you have nitrites you had ammonia and damage could already be done. Get the water quality checked. Also, get the SG up. These guys can only go so long in hypo. It damages kidneys in long term. If you want to maintain hypo, do it at 1.015. Add some methelene blue. 2 drops per gallon. Very safe and may help with O2.

However, do the SG raise over days. .002 per day.
 
DeniseAndy said:
Could be ammonia poisoning. Check your levels, then check Nitrites. If you have nitrites you had ammonia and damage could already be done. Get the water quality checked. Also, get the SG up. These guys can only go so long in hypo. It damages kidneys in long term. If you want to maintain hypo, do it at 1.015. Add some methelene blue. 2 drops per gallon. Very safe and may help with O2.

However, do the SG raise over days. .002 per day.
Click to expand...

This was his display tank. Unless he killed a lot of stuff and forced a cycle, ammonia is unlikely, although it never hurts to check. Hypo at 1.015 has no effect on cryptocaryon irritans. Best way to increase dissolved oxygen is to the lower the temperature.
 
From Wikipedia:

Scientific Designation:

A tri-cyclic compound: 3,7-bis(dimethlamino)-phenazathionium chloride


Common Names:

Methylene Blue, Methylthionate Chloride, Urolene Blue. A stock solution (3.7 mg/ml.) can be made by dissolving 1.4 grams of powder in 380 ml.s of water. In actual practice, most folks simply buy stock solutions.

Uses/Symptoms:

Most promisingly as a preventative... against fungal and bacterial action on freshwater fish eggs. Though sometimes suggested as a treatment for ich, velvet, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, other protozoa, monogenetic trematodes... there are far more useful medicines for actual treatment of these pathogens.

Dosages/Regimens:

Toxic to aquarium plant life, as well as nitrifying bacteria... Methylene Blue should not be used for prolonged exposure, or in permanent (main, display) systems... as it can/will kill off necessary beneficial bacteria.

There is evidence that utilizing Methylene Blue in concentration in the process of acclimating marine livestock reduces toxicity of nitrite and cyanide. The author (RMF) has used Methylene Blue as such a dip/bath adjunct for many years with good success. Please see here re: Dips/Baths. Methylene Blue converts otherwise bound Methemoglobin back to useful Hemoglobin in fishes' blood... it is useful in the in situ detoxification of nitrite and cyanide... Useful in dips/baths of newly imported livestock indeed.

Tolerances/Dangers:

Other than the contraindications stated above (not to be placed in long term contact, not with live plants)... Methylene Blue is relatively non-toxic in a very wide range of concentrations. Often, aquarists are advised to "just place as much as turns the water very blue"...

Use With Other Chemicals:

Methylene Blue can be safely mixed, added with other dip/bath compounds... it has no synergistic or antagonistic property with any known chemical used for aquarium medicine.

Close:

Though you may find folks advocating Methylene Blue as a "first line" treatment for bacterial, protozoan, even metazoan aquarium life treatment (even here!), you are advised that there are far more efficacious medicines for these groups of pathogens. This being stated, there is no harm in having Methylene Blue as an addition... or using it where it is best... as a dip/bath additive or in fungal prevention in freshwater fish culture. Be aware that this materi medica is phytotoxic, will stain most everything in prolonged contact, concentration... and can kill off your nitrifying (biofilter) bacteria. It should NOT be placed in continuous presence (in main/display) tanks for these reasons, and is not useful as a net/specimen container disinfectant.
 
From Wikipedia:

Scientific Designation:

A tri-cyclic compound: 3,7-bis(dimethlamino)-phenazathionium chloride


Common Names:

Methylene Blue, Methylthionate Chloride, Urolene Blue. A stock solution (3.7 mg/ml.) can be made by dissolving 1.4 grams of powder in 380 ml.s of water. In actual practice, most folks simply buy stock solutions.

Uses/Symptoms:

Most promisingly as a preventative... against fungal and bacterial action on freshwater fish eggs. Though sometimes suggested as a treatment for ich, velvet, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, other protozoa, monogenetic trematodes... there are far more useful medicines for actual treatment of these pathogens.

Dosages/Regimens:

Toxic to aquarium plant life, as well as nitrifying bacteria... Methylene Blue should not be used for prolonged exposure, or in permanent (main, display) systems... as it can/will kill off necessary beneficial bacteria.

There is evidence that utilizing Methylene Blue in concentration in the process of acclimating marine livestock reduces toxicity of nitrite and cyanide. The author (RMF) has used Methylene Blue as such a dip/bath adjunct for many years with good success. Please see here re: Dips/Baths. Methylene Blue converts otherwise bound Methemoglobin back to useful Hemoglobin in fishes' blood... it is useful in the in situ detoxification of nitrite and cyanide... Useful in dips/baths of newly imported livestock indeed.

Tolerances/Dangers:

Other than the contraindications stated above (not to be placed in long term contact, not with live plants)... Methylene Blue is relatively non-toxic in a very wide range of concentrations. Often, aquarists are advised to "just place as much as turns the water very blue"...

Use With Other Chemicals:

Methylene Blue can be safely mixed, added with other dip/bath compounds... it has no synergistic or antagonistic property with any known chemical used for aquarium medicine.

Close:

Though you may find folks advocating Methylene Blue as a "first line" treatment for bacterial, protozoan, even metazoan aquarium life treatment (even here!), you are advised that there are far more efficacious medicines for these groups of pathogens. This being stated, there is no harm in having Methylene Blue as an addition... or using it where it is best... as a dip/bath additive or in fungal prevention in freshwater fish culture. Be aware that this materi medica is phytotoxic, will stain most everything in prolonged contact, concentration... and can kill off your nitrifying (biofilter) bacteria. It should NOT be placed in continuous presence (in main/display) tanks for these reasons, and is not useful as a net/specimen container disinfectant.
 
I was understanding that this was not the main aquarium due to the low salinity. My misread. It would only be a Fish Only if salinity is that low. No, 1.015 is not as effective with ich, but too low salinity can have adverse effects too. If you suspect ich, use a treatment for it.

Rapid breathing is a sign of almost all parasitic infections and others. Sometimes it is the end behavior next to lethargy and lack of appetite. The described behavior sounded more erratic as with ammonia poisoning. Rubbing and scratching and bumping objects because of discomfort is a sign of parasites.

I suggested Methelene Blue because of the more mild effects. However, you may need more action. Dips will not help if the parasites are in the gills or under the skin. You need formalin or copper or quinines.

Either way that fish is very uncomfortable and now has open lesions in which a bacterial infection is surely to take advantage of. I certainly would hospitalize him and treat.
 
definitely check your water parameters. Also check your ph since it has tendency to drop at such low sg. I would also maybe do a nice water change.
Also what are you feeding them? the discoloration on the face could be a sign of HLLE which could be due to several factors including poor diet and bad water parameters.
 
IMO, although Meth blue has been around forever; I'd never use it for anything than a fungus preventative for FW fish eggs; like FW Angels & discus.
Re: the Lt. Tang: I have a gut feeling that something is wrong with this fish that is just more than parasite or water parameter related. Those are two areas that can help with diagnosis; but we're still in the dark with many fish disorders.
 
DeniseAndy said:
I was understanding that this was not the main aquarium due to the low salinity. My misread.

Which is why I chimed in. Once advice is given, we cannot tell you misread.

It would only be a Fish Only if salinity is that low. No, 1.015 is not as effective with ich, but too low salinity can have adverse effects too. If you suspect ich, use a treatment for it.

1.015 has no effect on ich or other parasite. SG below 1.009 can be a problem if it inadvertently drops below 1.008 which is the internal SG of fish. If you know it is ich, always use one of the three treatments which will affect it/.

I suggested Methelene Blue because of the more mild effects. However, you may need more action. Dips will not help if the parasites are in the gills or under the skin. You need formalin or copper or quinines.

Dips have no effect on ich, but do with some other parasites which are not as embedded so deeply.

I certainly would hospitalize him and treat.
Click to expand...

I totally agree.
 
I appreciate the chime in. I am always up for learning new opinions and methods of treatment. It is really hard to diagnose not knowing all factors and not seeing the fish. I know the ideal SG for Ich is 1.009-1.011, but I did not think the rest of the fish or these species should be subject too that long in low hypo if that is the only way you are treating for Ich. Use a medication to be safer. Also if no other fish is showing any signs of persistant ich, this fish either has a much worse case, or something else is going on. Make sure the other fish are kept in Ich treatment for at least 4 weeks though. Longer if you can. Cryptocaryon irritans' lifecycle is 28 days.

What bothers me most is rapid breathing. I have read that tangs can be erratic, but never to the extreme you mention. How long has he been in the 75 with the other fish? Maybe it is a space stress? Either way, first check parameters of water. Next QT. I think everyone agrees on those first steps.
 
DeniseAndy said:
I know the ideal SG for Ich is 1.009-1.011,

Actually, ideal is 1.009 although 1.008 is acceptable knowing that below that number is a bad thing for fish. 1.010-1.011 is not going to work.

but I did not think the rest of the fish or these species should be subject too that long in low hypo if that is the only way you are treating for Ich. Use a medication to be safer.

While copper is effective for ich (and some other parasites) it too has long term effects on fish.

Also if no other fish is showing any signs of persistant ich, this fish either has a much worse case, or something else is going on. Make sure the other fish are kept in Ich treatment for at least 4 weeks though. Longer if you can. Cryptocaryon irritans' lifecycle is 28 days.

The average life cycle is 28 days but it can be longer. Remember that all parasites are not synchronous, that is they do not start and stop at the same time. Life cycle is a normal distribution curve which in a small number of instances can last up to nine weeks.

What bothers me most is rapid breathing. I have read that tangs can be erratic, but never to the extreme you mention. How long has he been in the 75 with the other fish? Maybe it is a space stress? Either way, first check parameters of water. Next QT. I think everyone agrees on those first steps.
Click to expand...

Clearly those fish in a 75 gallon tank is a bad idea but stress does not cause ich. Fast breathing is problematic and suggests parasites of some sort in the gills
 
lagatbezan- I dont think it is HLLE because the rubbed skin is from bashing into the glass. Im feeding Ocean Nutrition Formula One pellets and flakes, Formula Two pellets, NLS flakes, and 1-3mm sinking pellets.

snorvich- the temp is 77. I don't think i killed a lot, maybe some, of the beneficial bacteria but i also have uneaten food decomposing. I'm do for a water change. I just checked the parameters with an API test kit:
Ph: 8.0
Nitrate: 5-10ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Ammonia: .5ppm
The ammonia is high, could that be from the decomposing food? Should i do WC to dilute it? Also i would think the other fish would be bothered by the ammonia, but they are swimming fine and not breathing rapidly.

DenisAndy- He has been in the 75 for 2 weeks, but was with the PBT, fiji blue devil, cleaner wrasse and a mimic tang for 8 months in a smaller tank and had been through hypo twice. Unfortunately the mimic died a few days after introducing him to the 75 from what i believe was Ich in the gills, he just plopped over dead one day, he looked fine on the outside. Also, the 75 is the QT. The scopas wasn't hypoed and had ich so when i added the other fish, who were hypoed, into the 75, they were covered in ich from the scopas. If i hypoed the scopas i wouldnt be worrying about hypoing now :(

Im starting to think it is the ammonia that is causing him to act irradically. Thoughts on this? Should i do WCes and suck out the decomposing food?
 
If ammonia is greater than zero, that is a problem. Water change indicated. How did you measure SG?
 
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