The Grim Reefer
Ready for some NOBALL!!!
So some T5 testing is in your future Sanjay? Cool. I guess I need to find someone with a 36" tall tank to see if these things can punch that deep.
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Sanjay
Premium Member
I am basically interested in answering comparison type questions, rather than individual t5 lamp type stuff.
I want to be able to answer with some definate data on spread vs intensity issues of t5s vs mh. I have redesigned the reflector setup to allow me to test 4ft fixtures at any depth upto 4ft. Unfortunately this increases the size of the test grid and hence the time to take data. So it will be quite limited, a few (2-3) "best" t5 fixtures and lamps, against a few (2-3) MH setups.
sanjay.
The Grim Reefer
Ready for some NOBALL!!!
That will be interesting to see. Its hard to tell in a tank with rocks and sand if shawdows or reflection is skewing the readings. I know one guy on RC who got a 310 reading at the bottom of a 75 (20" tall) using a 15K 175 watt Iwasaki in a Lumen Max reflctor running on an Ice Cap ballast. His 6 lamp Tek did 125. Both fixtures were mounted at usable heights, 8" for the halide and 4" for the Tek. That halide is going to be tough to beat for performance and efficiency.
reeflover2
New member
Is Iwasaki going to make that bulb in a 250W version? Are you also talking about 310 Par at 20"? On Sanjays website at what distance are the par measurements taken? Thanks
Robert Patterso
New member
Ballast question
Ballast question
Can someone tell me the pros and cons of a pulse start ballast. M138, good, bad in a 400w.
Ballast question
Can someone tell me the pros and cons of a pulse start ballast. M138, good, bad in a 400w.
Randall_James
Premium Member
Just love reading this thread and lurking but I have a question for Sanjay....
Below are links to a couple retrofit LED bulbs that are to replace medium mogul lamps rated at up to 250W.
Have you ever tested any of these bulbs?
Do these bulbs appear to be worth testing in your opinion?
Would you be willing to if someone else paid for the bulbs?
http://www.oksolar.com/n_cart/produ...17&cat=Lighting&subcat=Light Bulbs LED 120VAC
http://www.oksolar.com/0_n_cart/htm/01503.htm
Below are links to a couple retrofit LED bulbs that are to replace medium mogul lamps rated at up to 250W.
Have you ever tested any of these bulbs?
Do these bulbs appear to be worth testing in your opinion?
Would you be willing to if someone else paid for the bulbs?
http://www.oksolar.com/n_cart/produ...17&cat=Lighting&subcat=Light Bulbs LED 120VAC
http://www.oksolar.com/0_n_cart/htm/01503.htm
Sanjay
Premium Member
Re: Ballast question
Re: Ballast question
Unfortuantely, there are no lamps in 400W that I have seen that are designed for pulse start. To take advantage of the technology of pulse start, the lamps need to be designed for it.
Almost all lamps in 400W are probe start lamps.
While pulse start ballasts may work with probe start lamps, there is really no advantage to be gained by using the pulse start ballasts with these lamps.
sanjay.
Re: Ballast question
Unfortuantely, there are no lamps in 400W that I have seen that are designed for pulse start. To take advantage of the technology of pulse start, the lamps need to be designed for it.
Almost all lamps in 400W are probe start lamps.
While pulse start ballasts may work with probe start lamps, there is really no advantage to be gained by using the pulse start ballasts with these lamps.
sanjay.
TropTrea
New member
Lrd Lighting
Well I have looked into those lights and have made some conclusions loooking at both Sanjay's pages as well as the manufacturers pages.
The first conclusion is that the manufacturers data is correct for these bulbs. Mainly that they are aimular to 20K 250 Watt metal hides. They even produced some impressive spectrum plots that were very encouraging. as well as claims that these new lighting systems produce PAR values of at least what a 20K 250 Watt bulb produces.
My second conclusion comes after reviewing Sanjay's data on 250 Watt 20,000K bulbs. These bulbs appear to be the lowest in PAR value of any of the 250 Watt bulbs with the lower the Kelvin rating bulbs producing much higher PAR values.
As light penetrates the oceans in nature the shorter wave lenght light penetrates deeper than the longer wave lenght light. Therefore deep water lighting will have a higher Kelvin temperature and lower PAR value than shallow water light.
So my final thoughts are that for most Coral growth the these lighting fixtures will not produce the neccessary light as would a 6,500 K 250 Watt Metal Hide.
However if someone is creating a deep water tank, using corals with a high florescence, and interested more in appearance than coral growth these lights may work very well for them.
In the mean time I'll wait till they produce a LED system that has more light in the yellow and red wave lenghts for my prefence in coral growth. My other issue on these lights are there present pricing which I'm will fall as the research and developmental costs get paid off.
Hopefully Sanjay will comment in either disagreement or agreement with me on this as I look at him being much more knowledgable in this area than I am.
Dennis
Well I have looked into those lights and have made some conclusions loooking at both Sanjay's pages as well as the manufacturers pages.
The first conclusion is that the manufacturers data is correct for these bulbs. Mainly that they are aimular to 20K 250 Watt metal hides. They even produced some impressive spectrum plots that were very encouraging. as well as claims that these new lighting systems produce PAR values of at least what a 20K 250 Watt bulb produces.
My second conclusion comes after reviewing Sanjay's data on 250 Watt 20,000K bulbs. These bulbs appear to be the lowest in PAR value of any of the 250 Watt bulbs with the lower the Kelvin rating bulbs producing much higher PAR values.
As light penetrates the oceans in nature the shorter wave lenght light penetrates deeper than the longer wave lenght light. Therefore deep water lighting will have a higher Kelvin temperature and lower PAR value than shallow water light.
So my final thoughts are that for most Coral growth the these lighting fixtures will not produce the neccessary light as would a 6,500 K 250 Watt Metal Hide.
However if someone is creating a deep water tank, using corals with a high florescence, and interested more in appearance than coral growth these lights may work very well for them.
In the mean time I'll wait till they produce a LED system that has more light in the yellow and red wave lenghts for my prefence in coral growth. My other issue on these lights are there present pricing which I'm will fall as the research and developmental costs get paid off.
Hopefully Sanjay will comment in either disagreement or agreement with me on this as I look at him being much more knowledgable in this area than I am.
Dennis
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
I agree with the need for a 'fuller' spectrum. You know that 'faded pastel' look that some T5 lit tanks have? Its because there isnt enough red/yellow light. Bluer halide bulbs still give out a good amount of all spectrums... just with alot more blue. But many phosphor based bulbs that are bluer lack warmer spectrums all together. Since coral pigments are a response to excess light spectrums that the corals doesnt need, then running a narrow spectrum of blue is going to eliminate the need for corals to reflect other wavelengths. This is the case with pheonix 14,000K bulbs as well. They have such a high output, but its mostly blue... more than many 20,000Ks, and little else. Many people report 'washed out' coloration of their corals after some time because of this. Sure, the blue and purple corals, sometimes green ones, look very blue, but thats all. The reds turn purple, pinks turn blue, etc. Since LEDs also have a very narrow output, I can see similar problems. Many T5 users have discovered that adding in a 6500K bulb or 3000K bulb to 'round out' the spectrum has a huge impact on coral coloration. I have a friend who ran his tank with nothing but radium halides (250watt20,000Ks at each end, and a 400wattRadium in the center), and on top of that used dual 160watt VHO Actinics. It looked really 'deep blue sea' and all, like 40,000K or something, and his corals grew well, but they were all the same color, or very similar. Recently he switched to a new maristar unit, 3x250wattDE Ushio 14,000Ks (Great bulb BTW, possibly more output than the 10,000K, and a nice pure white look), and blue+ T5 bulbs to suppliment. His tank has gone through a 'rebirth'. All of a sudden, you can see all the choice looking corals he keeps that were covered in a cloak of blue for so long.
I agree, something of a red/yellow LED will most likely be needed to round out the spectrum on these LED units. As is, the white LED's peak in the blue range and have some green, and little red specrtum, and the blue LEDs are just that... blue, and very narrow. Where are the warmer spectrums?
I agree, something of a red/yellow LED will most likely be needed to round out the spectrum on these LED units. As is, the white LED's peak in the blue range and have some green, and little red specrtum, and the blue LEDs are just that... blue, and very narrow. Where are the warmer spectrums?
Randall_James
Premium Member
I was unable to find any charts or figures on spectrum, where did you find this data?
salmon alley
Premium Member
Giesemann clarification
Giesemann clarification
Hi Sanjay,
I just finished looking through your lighting website and have a quick question:
You've got the Giesemann 250W DE bulb tested listed as the '13000K Coral' but most of the online vendors have two different DE bulbs from Giesemann listed:
13000K Marine
or
14500K Coral
Which is the DE bulb that you tested that produced 126 ppfd on a 250W HQI ballast?
Thanks!
Jeff
Giesemann clarification
Hi Sanjay,
I just finished looking through your lighting website and have a quick question:
You've got the Giesemann 250W DE bulb tested listed as the '13000K Coral' but most of the online vendors have two different DE bulbs from Giesemann listed:
13000K Marine
or
14500K Coral
Which is the DE bulb that you tested that produced 126 ppfd on a 250W HQI ballast?
Thanks!
Jeff
TropTrea
New member
Thanks for posting that spectrum for the LED light. Notice they peak at around 445 nm which is very blue. Then remember Chloraphyll and lot of the other photosynthesis chemcals require light in the 670 or longer wave lenght.
Now is someone is creating a deep deep water enviroment whare in nature the shorter wavelenght penetrate then this may be a better set up. However again I started reading that the Florescing deep water corals like light in the 385 to 420 nm range where this spectrum is also lacking.
Dennis
Now is someone is creating a deep deep water enviroment whare in nature the shorter wavelenght penetrate then this may be a better set up. However again I started reading that the Florescing deep water corals like light in the 385 to 420 nm range where this spectrum is also lacking.
Dennis
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
But they dont. Dana Riddle's earlier test where a red and blue light were used and both corals did fine was not accurate enough to derive that. A more recent test showed that red LED's (LEDs having a much narrower bandwidth, where as before the red light had lots of blue still, and the blue had lots of red) caused the coral to 'brown out'. It was suggested that red light more readily causes the trigger for corals to react as if they had too much light (as more red light would mean being very close to the surface). I would also suggest that the browning out might be due to underexposure too, since the red light might have been so useless that the coral browned due to too little light, not even using the red LED's light, and thinking it was otherwise light-starved. Eventually, the Posci that was exposed to the RED LED started bleaching.
The Blue LED was exact opposite. Even at very high exposures, the coral wouldnt bleach out, and continued to grow.
I have had similar experiences. My Aqualine 10,000K 250wattDE bulbs were causing many of my corals to brown out. Yet, an even higher wattate bulb in its place (a 400 watt 20,000K) did not. The AB contains a large percentage of red, and not as much blue, so its more likely to trigger the 'browning out' that a much bluer bulb, even of higher PAR, would not. Instead the 20,000K 400watter just kept making the corals color up more and more.
OTOH, not enough red light is why many T5 users report their red/orange/yellow corals fading... and the response (with great results) has been to throw a 6500K, ATI sun pro, or 3000K bulb in with all the blue, actinic, and dayblue bulbs to help add some red/orange/yellow to the mix. And the pink poscillipora corals, pink birdsest, red brains, etc color back in very well.
One thing that you will notice in that review is a breakdown of the percentages of light spectra... even the XM 20,000K has some decent percentages of the full range of spectrums. The LED (much like many T5s) does not. Riddle suggests that this may be to corals advantage, as according to the PUR of many corals, the blue is more important than many other wavelengths. This may be true, and I think its a reason why some can switch from 10,000Ks to 14,000Ks and actually report better coral growth despite the lower PAR, but too go as far as eliminating those other spectrums, IMO, will be LED's shortcoming. They will have to add some yellow/red/orange LED's to the mix (just a few), to help make sure that the corals dont end up like those 'pastel' faded corals in some T5 lit tanks.
Here's a theory of mine I hope to test: I would suggest that corals base their degree of pigmentation, as what they 'sense' as their exposure to the sun, on the amount of red light, and then the blue is all used for growth. This would be very efficient, since whatever photosensors that the cells have would absorb would be captured and therefore no longer available for photosynthesis, and absorbing blue spectrums would mean they would be taking away from the light that the cell would use for photosynthesis. By only 'seeing' in the red spectrums, the coral would be able to determine its depth in the ocean much better (and with much more accuracy) than with blue, at least to the extent that the red would indicate when the coral is too shallow and make the coral's pigments stronger. So perhaps corals use blue for growth, and red to determine pigmentation. Just a theory... but it seems to ring true so far.
Dennis>>> Just thought you might want to take into consideration how Dana claims that the lower PAR of the LED unit is made up for by a better PUR since its spectrums are heavy in the blue spectrum.
The Blue LED was exact opposite. Even at very high exposures, the coral wouldnt bleach out, and continued to grow.
I have had similar experiences. My Aqualine 10,000K 250wattDE bulbs were causing many of my corals to brown out. Yet, an even higher wattate bulb in its place (a 400 watt 20,000K) did not. The AB contains a large percentage of red, and not as much blue, so its more likely to trigger the 'browning out' that a much bluer bulb, even of higher PAR, would not. Instead the 20,000K 400watter just kept making the corals color up more and more.
OTOH, not enough red light is why many T5 users report their red/orange/yellow corals fading... and the response (with great results) has been to throw a 6500K, ATI sun pro, or 3000K bulb in with all the blue, actinic, and dayblue bulbs to help add some red/orange/yellow to the mix. And the pink poscillipora corals, pink birdsest, red brains, etc color back in very well.
One thing that you will notice in that review is a breakdown of the percentages of light spectra... even the XM 20,000K has some decent percentages of the full range of spectrums. The LED (much like many T5s) does not. Riddle suggests that this may be to corals advantage, as according to the PUR of many corals, the blue is more important than many other wavelengths. This may be true, and I think its a reason why some can switch from 10,000Ks to 14,000Ks and actually report better coral growth despite the lower PAR, but too go as far as eliminating those other spectrums, IMO, will be LED's shortcoming. They will have to add some yellow/red/orange LED's to the mix (just a few), to help make sure that the corals dont end up like those 'pastel' faded corals in some T5 lit tanks.
Here's a theory of mine I hope to test: I would suggest that corals base their degree of pigmentation, as what they 'sense' as their exposure to the sun, on the amount of red light, and then the blue is all used for growth. This would be very efficient, since whatever photosensors that the cells have would absorb would be captured and therefore no longer available for photosynthesis, and absorbing blue spectrums would mean they would be taking away from the light that the cell would use for photosynthesis. By only 'seeing' in the red spectrums, the coral would be able to determine its depth in the ocean much better (and with much more accuracy) than with blue, at least to the extent that the red would indicate when the coral is too shallow and make the coral's pigments stronger. So perhaps corals use blue for growth, and red to determine pigmentation. Just a theory... but it seems to ring true so far.
Dennis>>> Just thought you might want to take into consideration how Dana claims that the lower PAR of the LED unit is made up for by a better PUR since its spectrums are heavy in the blue spectrum.
RedEyeReef
Active member
Is the 400w Coralvue Reeflux 12K (not 10K) on the list to be tested anytime soon?
Anyone using this bulb like to comment?
Anyone using this bulb like to comment?
70 gal SW tank, 25" deep, 36" wide, looking at a Outer Orbit Metal HQI Halide Light Fixture with 2x150MH, 2x39W Actinic (460nm), 2x39W Actinic (420nm), 9 blue lunar and 9 white lunar. The 4 Actinic bulbs are T-5s. That will give us about 6.5W per gallon which should help us to grow some good corals. It is made by Current-USA. Any opinions?
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