lightning Clown

[Reefvette]

When wild caught clowns are brought in unfortunately they are taken almost certainly from an existing anemone. The anemone provides safety and protection for wild caught clowns and also helps to replace their slime coat from constantly rubbing against the anemone. which is beneficial in preventing ich and brook.

Most WC clowns succumb to disease as a result of stress from shipping or stress from being in a dealers tank. They dont live with out anemones in the wild.

When i recieve wild caught clowns they go into a 20 gallon tank with aquacultured Bubble tips or if they are going into the display tank they go right in to the safety of what ever anemone i have in the tank.

Their bodies should naturally be able to fight off brook and ich, if they are fed properly and dont become stressed.

Ive done this for 4 Luecokranos, 2 Latz, 3 Akindynos, 3 Nigripis, 2 Orange skunks, 1 Blue stripe. and have only lost one fish DOA a orange skunk luecokranos mix.

Im my opinion with wild caught clowns its more beneficial to get them into a anemone then a fallow tank with chemicals.

 

[deangelr]

But what if they succumb to disease during the shipping process. Only meds can treat Brook and velvet effectivly.. Not only that, but almost all WC clowns have at least some internal parasites, if they go untreated those parastites can remain for years or indefinentely (These meds could be administered in a tank with anemones though)..

Im not saying if you dont QT all your fish will die.. And of course I know that anemones increase slime production (I use artificial ones for this reason, it has been shown that clowns that are in artificial anemones build up slime as if they were real..)

Its just that your opinion "its more beneficial to get them into a anemone then a fallow tank with chemicals" is so outside of the protocol for professional establishments, you have to expect some questions.

 

[Reefvette]

I do expect it and i dont mind it.


Obviously if they clown shows up with brook or ich it needs chemicals but that is a sign of a very unhealthy clown being sold or shipped to you. That really is kinda messed up and i cant rememeber ever recieving a fish through mail order that showed up with velvet or ich.

I am talking about normal QT for a fish that you get that is new.

Also internal parasites i beleive are always present, just like ich. If the clown is fed properly and cared for their bodies should be able to keep them at bay. Just like humans if healthy our bodies are able to fight off attack from parasites and infections.

There is no replacement for an actual anemone a fake anemone does not provide the same stimulation as real one. I wouldnt dose chem with an anemone, no matter how safe they say.

I beleive that the natural symbiosis is more beneficial with a newly arrived WC clown then using chemicals to kill what ever is inside them.

Also check out the lightening clownfish blog. I originally suggested my QT method when Matt was having problems early on with the health of the fish that could be seen with your naked eye.

CB clowns are a horse of a different color.

 

[deangelr]

I do expect it and i dont mind it.

There is no replacement for an actual anemone a fake anemone does not provide the same stimulation as real one. I wouldnt dose chem with an anemone, no matter how safe they say.


I beleive that the natural symbiosis is more beneficial with a newly arrived WC clown then using chemicals to kill what ever is inside them.

Also check out the lightening clownfish blog. I originally suggested my QT method when Matt was having problems early on with the health of the fish that could be seen with your naked eye.

CB clowns are a horse of a different color.

I would disagree that fake anemones dont work.. I can't remember, nor care to look for, but there is a study that showed clowns were able to move directly into an anemone after being hosted by a fake anemone.. This fake anemone solicited the response of mucus production and allowed the clown to enter a real anemone with little to no acclimation..

Clowns that were not acclimated to a fake anemone still took the normal aclimation time when moved in with a real anemone. It probably isnt the exact same, but I would bet the clowns don't even know the difference.

And when you are shipped clowns direct from the collector, sometimes it is just the shipping stress that causes a diseas outbreak, Not necessarily that it is an unhealthy fish.

And I wouldnt dose any tank with an anemone in it either, what I ment was feeding.. You can feed garlic gaurd, or other natural cleansers to rid the fish of internal parasites.. Those would have no affect on the anemone.

CB clowns are different story, agreed. I only do WC these days.

 

[Reefvette]

Please and try and find info on that study. I would like to know what they used for a control.

Captive bred clowns who have never lived in an anemone can go right into an anemone. There bodies are always recouping slime coat no matter what and years of evolution have given them a slime coat that stops nemocysts from stinging.

The Stimulation of the actual tentacles on the clowns scales helps to create a healthier slime coat.


If a fish gets ich or brook its unhealthy, there should be signs of this before the fish is shipped. Too much Stress makes you unhealthy either way its unhealthy.

 

[deangelr]

I dont really agree that if a fish gets ich or brook there are always signs before shipping. That is just the way of WC clowns, many of them are constantly fighting the battle with parasites and infections in the wild environment, the stress coinciding with shipping causes these to play out... There are many threads in the archives that talk about how hard it is to acclimate WC clowns, and I agree with this, they are much more difficult.

Not sure what you mean by CB clowns can go right into an anemone.. In what I have seen/experienced, they still need to build up their slime coat to enter into a host.

Is there some information out there that says WC clowns need acclimation time, but CB clowns are already covered in slime and do not need that acclimation time? Ive never heard this before.

 

[Wolverine]

You can tell me with 100 percent assurance how it happens.

Nope

Have you studied clowns long term in natural conditions?

We are hobbyist not scientist

First off, what I do and what you do is irrelevant to the point I was making. I don't have to have studied clowns directly. Many others have. I can read the results of their studies. I can congregate that knowledge with my own experience and the experience of those I interact with who raise them. While true that what we see in our tanks does not necessarily correlate with what goes on in nature, but the results do tend to be close. Since this family is so extensively studied, there's no reason for me to reinvent the wheel. More importantly, as I said, I don't have to be a collector to know what goes on in the wild.

Second, nothing in biology, and very little in science in general, can be said to go 100%.

There's plenty of evidence that clownfish will host just fine in false anemones. I doubt that anyone has studied the slime coat levels in those situations.
While I agree that it's good to minimize stress, and this can help with disease, it's a not a good substitute for a QT (which doesn't necessarily mean using "chemicals"), or for proper disease treatment if the fish is ill. On top of that, there is significant evidence that many clownfish get their immunity to specific species of anemones, not necessarily to all in general. While some generalists can switch host species easily, some cannot. So taking the WC fish and putting in with a different species anemone can be more stressful, not less.

 

[Wolverine]

We are not accredited scientist, we all speak from expeirence in a glass box,

While that's true for the majority of us, it's not true for all. There are plenty of "accredited scientists" involved in this hobby and this forum (and this subforum).

 

[PraireDogging]

You missed the poster.. he posted the same thing "wow cool" on like 5 different threads and all at once. (I think the post got removed)

I read the whole blog, no selective reading on my part.. I don't even know what was said..

I've never posted "wow cool". I read way more than post. I could really care less how many post I have. I post when I feel I have something to add. I feel like this is a waste of time but you ****ed me off.

 

[Toddrtrex]

PraireDogging, if you would actually read all of "deangelr"'s post, you will see that he was/is taking about another poster, whose posts were removed and no longer seen.

 

[Reefvette]

Thanks

Thanks

Wolvernine

There is no accredited scienetist chiming in on this discussion, there may be them on the board but not here, if so they would have chimed in.

You dont have to be anything to know what goes on in the wild, but for you pass off observations in a glass box as reality is not fair. (Scientist dont study animals in zoo's to find out how they behave in nature, they go to their natural habitat)

Dont tell me that living on a reef with the constant threat of being eaten or your anemone being tore up by a school of butteryflys mimics in anyway our predator free controlled tanks.

I never said clowns dont host fake anemones, i said i dont think they offer the same benefits as a real one. Captive bred clowns can host an anemone even though they have never seen one or have their parents. These are not learned traits they are instincts, they seeks shelter, they are not good swimmers and if the wild will be eaten if they dont seek shelter. Captive bred clowns dont know the threat of being eaten so they don't seek shelter, but if they choose to they can host an anemone immediately

WC clowns get the most stressed in shipping and wholesaler and retailers tanks because they are not given an anemone. They are taken from their host and expected to survive without the safety and security the anemone provides.

"On top of that, there is significant evidence that many clownfish get their immunity to specific species of anemones, not necessarily to all in general. While some generalists can switch host species easily, some cannot. So taking the WC fish and putting in with a different species anemone can be more stressful, not less."
This statement while true up until recently it has been observed that clowns can and actually will go into anemones previously thought that they would not host and this actually maybe the reason why we have some natural occuring hybrid clowns like thielli and luecokranos via a mertens carpet anemone

Which ones can not switch host?

Check out rareclownfish.com there is a gentleman on there with pictures of clowns hosting all kinds of anemones that no one though they hosted and they are in the wild. The only ill affect on the clowns from their body adjusting to a more potent anemone is hyper melanism or turning darker even to black.

 

[Wolverine]

there may be them on the board but not here, if so they would have chimed in.

Um, no, not necessarily.

You dont have to be anything to know what goes on in the wild, but for you pass off observations in a glass box as reality is not fair. (Scientist dont study animals in zoo's to find out how they behave in nature, they go to their natural habitat)

Um, where exactly did I do that? Nope, I can't find it either.

Dont tell me that living on a reef with the constant threat of being eaten or your anemone being tore up by a school of butteryflys mimics in anyway our predator free controlled tanks.

Nope. Never said or thought that either. You seem to be either confusing my posts with someone else's, or you're just not reading anything I've written very carefully, and ending up putting words in my mouth (on my screen).

WC clowns get the most stressed in shipping and wholesaler and retailers tanks because they are not given an anemone. They are taken from their host and expected to survive without the safety and security the anemone provides.

Any evidence for this claim? There are plenty of stressors in the chain from reef to tank, and I'm not aware of studies comparing those kept with anemones with those that weren't, or comparing how that stress modification compares to minimizing any other stressors (doesn't mean there hasn't been one, just that I'm unaware of it).

This statement while true up until recently it has been observed that clowns can and actually will go into anemones previously thought that they would not host and this actually maybe the reason why we have some natural occuring hybrid clowns like thielli and luecokranos via a mertens carpet anemone

Yes, some clowns can very easily, Clarkii's have no trouble switching between anemones. That doesn't mean that all can.

All that said, based on your responses, I think you really missed the point of my posts here (which was disagreeing with your assertion that those of us who are not professionals can't know what goes on in the wild).

 

[Reefvette]

reply

reply

"While true that what we see in our tanks does not necessarily correlate with what goes on in nature, but the results do tend to be close. "

You just said that what we see in our tanks doesnt correlate but its tends to be close. That sounds like your assuming/speculating that what you observe tends to be close to what happens in nature. Is it can you say for a fact it tends to be close

I breed clowns too and i am sure as sugar that what i observe does not tend to mimic what happens in nature. Not at all.

Alot of Breeders dont keep pairs with anemones, I do
Dependin on the size of the aquaculture facility some dont even live in glass boxes but in huge vats.

The evidence for my claim while not scientific i did lay out when i explained my QT method. Some clowns that notoriously bad shippers and that are easily stressed i have had success using this method. (Nigripis/Bluestripe/Latz)

Every wild caught clown without certainty has come from an existing anemone on a reef. They dont surivive without them on a reef. It sounds to me that being scooped up in a net from a nice comfortable anemone is very stressful. Clowns dont live outside of anemones, they have formed a symbiotic relationship and benefits both. Without one the anemone the clown can not survive. (in a fish tank they can)

Your info about clarkis sounds like it came from Dr fautin and dr allens study from 1992. Please check out that website i provided you with,great pictures from the wild showing clowns hosting in anemones we thought they couldnt. (Clowns in the Tomatoe complex hosting carpet anemones.)

It actually does mean that all clowns can switch host because a clarki clown is part of a complex of clowns that all looks the same except for small variations in color or shape. So if a Clarki clown can do it so can a Blue Stripe, so can a Akinydnos, so can a three stripe.

You may mean that it is geographically impossible for some clowns to host some hosting anemones because their locations dont overlap but in locations where they do overlap it has been observed that clowns will host other anemones that what is widely accepted as the only host. Again reference the website i spoke about.

Whose information do you trust more, an expert or a hobbyist.

I got the point in your first reply post.

 

[davocean]

Boy did this post derail!LOL
I've got some dude I've never heard of thinking he's calling me out on some blog I could absolutely care less about!
All this from someone just pointing out a cool clown they found a post of.
I normally don't comment on things based on heresay, but we haven't had much else to go on other than some dudes blog and a couple people I know in the industry just chatting about it.
As far as RV's comment on we should trust more, hobbyists or experts, I don't know, I know a quite a few hobbyists that can handle pairing some clowns.
While I may state that maroons can be more difficult to pair than other clown species, it's not some serious challenge that can only be accomplished by any so called expert.
That's all I have to say about this subject, good luck to the guy.

 

[Reefvette]

Dav i love discussion it only leads to good things

I just dont think that pairing clowns is as cut and dry as we think. We can not continue to base what happens in our fish tanks as close to nature or natural. Either way you look at the pairings we make are just that man made and not of any natural occurence

 

[DeathWish302]

Boy did this post derail!LOL
I've got some dude I've never heard of thinking he's calling me out on some blog I could absolutely care less about!
All this from someone just pointing out a cool clown they found a post of.
I normally don't comment on things based on heresay, but we haven't had much else to go on other than some dudes blog and a couple people I know in the industry just chatting about it.
As far as RV's comment on we should trust more, hobbyists or experts, I don't know, I know a quite a few hobbyists that can handle pairing some clowns.
While I may state that maroons can be more difficult to pair than other clown species, it's not some serious challenge that can only be accomplished by any so called expert.
That's all I have to say about this subject, good luck to the guy.

+1 to Dave.:wildone:

I was really impressed with the lightning maroon when it first hit GBD. I have since completely become bored with Matt's lack of drive with this fish and ramblings on whatever you call that blog.

RV has some points, but moral of my story to Matt is to pi$$ or get off the pot. Make it happen or quite talking about what 'could' happen. I don't see alot of other sucessful breeders boring an audience with their thoughts on reviews and what 'they would do'. They show the output and move on with helpful pointers. I could name quite a few rogue breeders that have accomplished as much as Matt, but prefer not to bask in the glory hole of these ridiculous blogs or forums. He surpassed sharing his experience and went off the deep end.

It's not like this PNG maroon is the newest thing since sliced bread, it's a rare morph of striping for clown's sake. I'll have my Gasters and breeding by the time I see any output from him.

Sorry for the rant, but I question the logic in his overall plan or these clown's and if this was just a publicity stunt to catapault a semi-biz out of the deal with the followers of the blog.

Enough said....hope I look like an aXX and he has some larvae tomorrow.:bounce1:

 

[Wolverine]

You just said that what we see in our tanks doesnt correlate but its tends to be close. That sounds like your assuming/speculating that what you observe tends to be close to what happens in nature. Is it can you say for a fact it tends to be close

I would argue that yes, for the most part, it is close. Not only that, but there's enough experience with clownfish both in the wild and in aquaria to be easy to follow and to differentiate. Most of the behaviors we see in a tank are seen in the wild. There are obvious exceptions (such as the extraordinarily entertaining fry balls).

Your info about clarkis sounds like it came from Dr fautin and dr allens study from 1992. Please check out that website i provided you with,great pictures from the wild showing clowns hosting in anemones we thought they couldnt. (Clowns in the Tomatoe complex hosting carpet anemones.)

Actually it came more from my own experience with them. I'm well familiar with that website and have been for many years. I did not say, or imply, that Clark's were the only clowns doing that; I was throwing it out as a specific example that is known to switch easily.
There are also two different questions here when we're talking about "switching" hosts. There's the situation of a species hosting in an "atypical" host. There's also the situation of an individual fish being acclimated to one host, and then moving to an "atypical" host.

It actually does mean that all clowns can switch host because a clarki clown is part of a complex of clowns that all looks the same except for small variations in color or shape. So if a Clarki clown can do it so can a Blue Stripe, so can a Akinydnos, so can a three stripe.

While it does mean that other clown's in that complex are more likely to be able to easily switch, that doesn't follow from that that all clowns would be able to, not by a long shot.

You may mean that it is geographically impossible for some clowns to host some hosting anemones because their locations dont overlap

Nope.

Whose information do you trust more, an expert or a hobbyist.

Depends on the question being asked, and the expertise of the "expert" involved. Of course, it helps even more if it's someone who falls into both categories.

I got the point in your first reply post.

Your replies indicate otherwise.

 

[Reefvette]

Um ok

Um ok

Wolve,
All clowns can switch anemones. If you have read Dr. Fautins and Allens papers you notice that they list many host for one type of clown. In recent years those have expanded because of more research in nature.

The only thing that limits what anemones clowns can go into is geography. If an anemone is in the area clowns make use of it. There is no a typical host because they have many to choose from.

Mertens carpets host every complex
Gigantea host ever complex
LTA host three of the complex
Magnifica host every complex
Sebeas host every complex
Bubbletips host three complex

It looks like most every clownfish can host any anemones except for where it is geographically impossible.

You point was understood but was quite snarky.

Please check out Rareclownfish.com, seriously lots of good pictures from nature.

 

[Winwood]

Wolve,
All clowns can switch anemones. If you have read Dr. Fautins and Allens papers you notice that they list many host for one type of clown. In recent years those have expanded because of more research in nature.

The only thing that limits what anemones clowns can go into is geography. If an anemone is in the area clowns make use of it. There is no a typical host because they have many to choose from.

Mertens carpets host every complex
Gigantea host ever complex
LTA host three of the complex
Magnifica host every complex
Sebeas host every complex
Bubbletips host three complex

It looks like most every clownfish can host any anemones except for where it is geographically impossible.

You point was understood but was quite snarky.

Please check out Rareclownfish.com, seriously lots of good pictures from nature.

This statement, I believe, is somewhat misleading. Although many clowns have the abilily to switch anemones, most do not venture into what we would consider non-natural host species because of the gauntlet of risks they would face in doing so, such as; being eaten by an unfamailiar host, being displaced by a larger, more aggressive species etc... Rareclownfish.com is great place to view some of the more unusual but exceedingly rare examples of some clowns using "nonnatural" anemones as host species, however these examples are usually extreme examples and not generally observed on a regular basis. Also, in atleast one example, where a melanopus clown inhabited a merten's carpet anemone, it was shown that it was unable to attract a mate in the seventeen years it has been documented, another deterant for anemonefish to "jump ship" from their natural host species.

I don't believe geography is the only limiting factor in anemonefish/anemone relationships. I believe anemonefish have a strong instinctual drive to cohabitate with their preferential hosts and only in extreme situations will one find fish outside these boundaries. That being said, our general knowlege of what clowns will naturally associate with what anemones is predecated on dated literature and not necessarily reflective on what happens everywhere in nature, especially in remote and rarely studied areas.

 

[Wolverine]

It looks like most every clownfish can host any anemones except for where it is geographically impossible.

Ah, I think I see the basis of the problem. You're talking about what clownfish species can do, whereas I'm talking about an individual fish that has already acclimated to a specific host. Again, in some species, these individuals will have no problem switching, in some species, they seem to be unable to at an individual level.

There is no a typical host because they have many to choose from.

That doesn't mean some of them wouldn't be atypical; I suppose that would depend on your definition of the term "atypical". I'd argue that any anemone that a clownfish will not "typically" host with in nature would, by definition, be "atypical", not necessarily one that they never host with.

You point was understood but was quite snarky.

Responded in kind.

Please check out Rareclownfish.com, seriously lots of good pictures from nature.

As noted above, I'm familiar with the site. Doesn't help with the question above.