Limits of Foam Fractionation

I'm really happy that someone is trying to quantitatively assess skimmer performance. 20-30% is an eye-opener.

I think in the end, the old, traditional sage advice that a combination of skimming plus routine use of activated carbon is best for our tanks will be reinforced.
 
At work I play around with proteins with lots of different solubility/hydrophobicity properties that would be better than the generic BSA for these assays. The issues brought up in this thread regarding skimmer design could be quantitatively assayed to see if size really does matter. Now if I only had access to an aquarium let alone all the different skimmers...

If anyone is interested in trying this out on their own, there are fluorimetry-based assays to determine protein concentration. There are (relatively) cheap machines that can be used to read them out. BCAs are really easy but the equipment costs are typically more expensive. There are even ways of determining the concentrations of multiple proteins at a single pass

Ok, the fluorimeter I bought for my lab a couple of years ago (check out the Qubit from Invitrogen) is now listed at $1000 so it isnt as cheap as I remembered. I think that got it significantly discounted ~$250. They work well and are ultra portable. There are others.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14404082#post14404082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roadtoad
At work I play around with proteins with lots of different solubility/hydrophobicity properties that would be better than the generic BSA for these assays. The issues brought up in this thread regarding skimmer design could be quantitatively assayed to see if size really does matter. Now if I only had access to an aquarium let alone all the different skimmers...

If anyone is interested in trying this out on their own, there are fluorimetry-based assays to determine protein concentration. There are (relatively) cheap machines that can be used to read them out. BCAs are really easy but the equipment costs are typically more expensive. There are even ways of determining the concentrations of multiple proteins at a single pass

Ok, the fluorimeter I bought for my lab a couple of years ago (check out the Qubit from Invitrogen) is now listed at $1000 so it isnt as cheap as I remembered. I think that got it significantly discounted ~$250. They work well and are ultra portable. There are others.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to put your big brain to use. Fish and corals the world around are hoping that you are the savior who will improve their captive lives.

I would love to see your results!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14389443#post14389443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SciGuy2
I'm really happy that someone is trying to quantitatively assess skimmer performance. 20-30% is an eye-opener.

I think in the end, the old, traditional sage advice that a combination of skimming plus routine use of activated carbon is best for our tanks will be reinforced.

+1000
 
Right now my medium sized brain is working on finding a cure for Multiple Sclerosis. I am hoping to set up my tank after a 2 year hiatus. Then we can see what effects dwell time and bubble size will have on water quality.
 
Hmmm, that's probably more important. I guess we'll have to find someone else to carry out the mission.
 
"I think in the end, the old, traditional sage advice that a combination of skimming plus routine use of activated carbon is best for our tanks will be reinforced."

I was thinking that even before I was halfway through reading this thread.
 
I like how there were no posts in this in 2008 and then page 4 just continues on like only a day passed. It also figures I read this the day after I buy a new skimmer.

So does this mean that skimmers are not the be all end all solution to everyone's reefing problems? I realize that many would argue that they are the greatest advancement to the hobby (also flow and lighting) in recent years but can a $2000.00 skim 10 times better than a $200.00 skimmer if they are identical in build and pump use.
 
A 30% reduction in dissolved organics (if that is acurate) is fairly significant and is in my opinion, worth using a good skimmer. For many years I was aware that skimmers do not remove all organics because I've read statements to that effect in various reef keeping books in the past. Just how much they do remove was always a mystery and this thread help shed some light on that. I'm not sure how this experiment was conducted as details are sparse so i'm not sure how seriously to take it. It all underscores the need to use carbon and change it regularly and to be careful with how much fish and invertebrate food you add to the tank.
 
Last edited:
It's too bad they didn't throw one of the 'uber' skimmers into the experiment. I would have really liked to have seen the range. I'm going to stand on Calfo's shoulders/statements in a thread a few years back and say that I don't think an uber skimmer would have blown away the other skimmers.
 
Statistics can be misleading. I'm sure you could measure the amount of POC (particulate organic carbon) & even DOC (dissolved organic carbon) removed by a mechanical (sediment) filter and find similar efficacy results. The problem is, nobody wants to start a forum on sponge filters, and manufacturers can't run glossy ads for $2,000.00 filter socks.
 
Hi All

This thread is representative of innumerable threads on RC and other aquarium boards where interested parties attempt to assess skimmer performance and come to some conclusion about the merits of one skimmer (or one type of skimmer design) vs. another.

A critical question underlying these types of dialogs is “What criteria for skimming success is being cited?”

Although this thread does not delve into some of the criteria raised in other skimmer threads, in general, aquarists seem to focus on criteria like (a) volume of skimmate removed per unit time, (b) color of skimmate, and/or (c) air flow rate (lph), presumably because all of these factors are readily measurable/observable. It then follows that if one of these criteria is used to judge skimmer performance, it is a relatively straightforward matter to collect data and arrive at a conclusion; i.e., skimmer A removes more skimmate per hour, or pulls more air into the skimmer body, than skimmer B, and so it is “better”.

However, there are some concerns raised by this approach if these particular criteria are being used as surrogates for TOC (total organic carbon) removal.

Specifically, as an illustration of these concerns, when I lecture on skimmer performance, I use a slide that shows three skimmer cups full of skimmate. The first is black coffee colored and has lots of foam. The second is light tea colored and has little foam, and the third is in between the first two in terms of color and foam. I ask the audience which skimmate is the most desirable, and of course the deep, rich coffee colored example gets the most votes. I then go on to reveal that the coffee colored skimmate is, in fact, coffee with some dish soap thrown in to generate bubbles upon blowing with a straw. If the entire volume is concentrated to a dry solid, this "instant coffee" weighs 2.7 gm. The light tea colored skimmate is actually 10 gm of brown sugar in water with again dish soap/blowing to generate foam. That is, the weak, undesirable "skimmate" actually consists of 4x the amount of organic stuff. The third skimmer cup contains actual skimmate from my reef tank, and I go on to talk about its dry mass, with and without feeding the tank, etc. So, the take-home message that I hope that the audience absorbs is that color, volume, smell, etc. are not useful predictors of skimmate dry mass, which is the actual important metric if clearing TOC from aquarium water is the desired goal of the skimmer.

The tests described in the Advanced Aquarist article use different criteria than skimmate color or volume for measuring skimmer performance; the AA article tests use (a) the rate of TOC removal from authentic aquarium water, and (b) the amount of TOC removed from aquarium water, as metrics for successful skimming. The fundamental conclusions from these tests are described above by pjf.

The skimmers that we tested have been characterized as “relatively low tech” earlier in this thread. Over the summer 2009, we plan to test (by the same methodology) what we hope are viewed as “high-end” skimmers. At present, I am leaning towards a Bubble King mini and a Warner Marine recirculating skimmer (I forgot the model #) because I want to test further the relationship between water flow rate and skimmer performance, and the WM skimmer will allow me to set water flow rate and air flow rate independently. Both time and $$ constraints prevent us from pursuing more than two new skimmers. However, the methodology described in the article is robust enough for a skimmer manufacturer, for example, to pick up the gauntlet and run tests themselves.

FWIW, its highly unlikely that any significant amount of proteins survive long enough in aquarium water to be picked up by skimmers. That raises the question, "what exactly is TOC, anyway?" - an important question without an answer at present.

Are the low TOC pickup results (i.e., 20 â€"œ 30 % of the TOC present) extendable to other skimmers? The testing alluded to above with the new “high-end” skimmers will be useful in answering this question. If you read the text accompanying Fig. 1 of the referenced Advanced Aquarist article, you will find an explanation for that observation (only 20 - 30% TOC removal) that suggests the low pickup value is an intrinsic function of bubbles and TOC, and has nothing to do with the skimmer per se.

If those results extrapolate to all skimmers (or at least other skimmers), then it is clear that skimmers don't do much, and it then becomes questionable if it is really worth obsessing about all of the engineering modifications (bubble plates, cones, recirculating pumps, etc) that currently drive up the price of skimmers.

In terms of the larger topic of clearing TOC from aquarium water, two methods that far exceed skimmer capabilities are based on (1) GAC (granular activated carbon) and (2) bacterial consumption. On this latter point, I direct your attention to Fig. 6 in http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3/ . You will see that reef aquarium TOC levels drop from an after-feeding high of ~ 1.4 ppm of C down to a baseline value of ~ 0.9 ppm of C over 12 hours without any skimming or GAC. The TOC is likely consumed by the tank’s bacterial population, a hypothesis supported by the independent work of several other researchers (e.g., Ferrier-Pages, Means, Rohwer). On the topic of GAC-based removal of TOC, we have some unpublished results that demonstrate that a sufficient amount of GAC can strip an authentic reef tank’s TOC content from several ppm down to < 0.3 ppm (our detection limit) over several hours.

So, I think that what we are learning from all of these skimmer and GAC-based reef tank water purification studies is that bubbles (i.e., a skimmer) is a relatively poor methodology for TOC removal compared to GAC or bacterial action, but bubbles do have the advantage of being cheap! An entirely different question that should be at the core of these discussions (but is not at present) is, “What are appropriate TOC ranges for maintaining a healthy and thriving reef tank?” Some hints might be garnered from the data in Table 1 of the “2008/8/aafeature3” Advanced Aquarist article. From that perspective (i.e., mimicking the TOC levels on natural reefs), the ability of the various methodologies that modulate aquarium TOC levels can be judged as adequate or inadequate.

More to come, stay tuned….

Ken

if
 
sirrus6, thank you for the enlightening post. I look forward to seeing your next round of results. These companies are making you buy the skimmers? You would think that if a manufacturer honestly believed that their skimmer was good enough to blow the doors off of the competition that they would be begging you to add their product to your studies. ;)

Funny that we all keep coming back to GAC even though some hobbyists are very excited to state that they do not use it (I think there are fewer people stating such these days but there seemed to be a lot a couple of years ago). How much GAC do you think I could buy for the price of a skimmer upgrade? Let's say it's just a $1000 skimmer (a semi-uber if you will)...that's 125 lbs of ROX 0.8. I think I would be set for quite a few years with that. It would definitely last longer than the skimmer would.
 
This is a great thread and I appreciate everyone sticking to the subject and providing thoughtful posts. Based on the the study and Ken's (sirrus6) post, there's no harm in running my G2 skimmers on my 65 and 40 br, but I might be better served to fill both canisters of my BRS carbon/GFO reactors with carbon and do weekly carbon changes when I do my water changes. I'm really surprised to learn that skimmers remove such a relatively small amount of organics. Very enlightening.
Gary
 
The information in this thread couples in an interesting way with a post I read elsewhere on RC from Randy Holmes-Farley. In that, he described research he has done with GFO. He stated that GFO can quickly become saturated with phosphate, sometimes in 24 hr. and then begin to leach phosphates back into the water to achieve equilibrium with what remains in the water. Another poster indicated, given that behavior, that GFO quickly becomes a very expensive means of removing phosphate. Randy did not disagree and suggested that a refugium/chaeto was a way to remove phosphate without risk of it being released back into the water. If GFO isn't going to be any more effective than that, it seems that the GFO chamber of my dual reactor is better used for more carbon. I've not been using chaeto and a reverse light cycle because I was relying on GFO.

The point of this rambling is that, since skimmers are clearly of limited value in organics removal, carbon is apparently of great value, and GFO has short-term value, it appears that the best arrangement is lots of carbon, chaeto with reverse-cycle lighting, and a skimmer, mainly because it allows us to visibly see organics removal (so we feel better), knowing that it's going to top out at 30%.

This all has me completely re-thinking my approach to filtration.

Gary
 
Do you have a link to that thread glparr? I would be interested in checking it out. I've always assumed that GFO was actually cheaper than a refugium (less watts, no bulb replacements, no need to buy a large enough sump to accomodate it). I can see that it would be more expensive initially if you had high levels of phosphates and needed to get them down to the point of diminishing returns. After that though, it's just maintenance of an already low concentration of phosphates. It's not going to get used up nearly as quickly once you get to that point.

FWIW, studies have shown that GAC can be used up very quickly as well. A few Advanced Aquarist articles have demonstrated as such. Once again though, if you are already to the point of diminishing returns, it will end up just maintaining low levels because there won't be any high levels to pull out of the water.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14442341#post14442341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
I've always assumed that GFO was actually cheaper than a refugium (less watts, no bulb replacements, no need to buy a large enough sump to accomodate it). I can see that it would be more expensive initially if you had high levels of phosphates and needed to get them down to the point of diminishing returns. After that though, it's just maintenance of an already low concentration of phosphates. It's not going to get used up nearly as quickly once you get to that point.


Phosphate is easily removed with GFO, but nitrogen (particularly nitrate) reduction will still remain a benefit of refugia.
 
The whole question of TOC removal might best be discussed in the context of "What TOC concentration do I want in my tank?" rather than "How much/how fast can I remove TOC?" That is, as I indicated above, we have used GAC to strip almost all of the TOC (as measured by a Shimadzu TOC Analyzer) from reef tank water in a short time. What I didn't mention in the above post is what happened to the tank's inhabitants at the end of this experiment. As far as we (we = Sanjay Joshi and I) could tell - nothing! The fish/corals seemed O.K. In fact, if I recall correctly, the TOC level returned to some equilibrium value fairly rapidly. The point that I am trying to make here is that it is possible (plausible? likely?) that in a healthy and mature reef tank, the endogenous TOC producers (corals and phytoplankton) and the endogenous TOC consumers (bacteria and other microbes) are in "equilibrium", and the microbes endow a "buffering capacity" to the tank that permits the livestock to accommodate/survive large fluctuations in TOC level. If you are interested in learning more about TOC commerce in aquaria and on the reef, you might find http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3/ and http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/ interesting. Note that I didn't mention food additions (or fish poop) in my description of TOC producers; there is a reason for that omission, but I'll save those results for a future publication.

So, what TOC levels should we as aquarists shoot for? A "naturalist" point of view might cite the levels of TOC found on thriving reefs. Those TOC values are surveyed in Table 1 of the AA article cited above (ca. 0.7 - 1.5 ppm of C). I am unaware of any documented reasons for striving to achieve TOC levels either higher or lower than the natural reef levels. From this perspective, it would seem counterproductive to employ very aggressive TOC removal methods, like lots of GAC, to drop TOC levels below these values. Also, as indicated from the experimental results above, the TOC producers in the tank would probably just raise the TOC levels back up to where an equilibrium is reached with the TOC consumers.

The issue of GAC use raises secondary questions such as "How much GAC should I use?" and "When should I change my GAC?" We have attempted to provide some insight into these questions in http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1/ and http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/2/aafeature1/. These studies used dyes as surrogates for TOC and a complex mathematical model to arrive at answers for these questions. In actuality, we have since re-visited the GAC system using TOC removal from authentic reef tank water instead of dyes, and also we have developed a better mathematical model for analyzing the data. I hope to finish off these studies this summer and publish in the fall. So, the conclusions/advice from the two GAC articles may change based upon these new results/models.

Bottom line (just sheer speculation and personal opinion): I think that our livestock does best in water most similar to the water that they have evolved to thrive in, and that hypothesis suggests that maintaining the water's components, including TOC, at "natural" levels is a beneficial thing.
There are several methods for TOC input, including feeding the tank (maybe!), adding C sources (vodka, etc), and photosynthesis. At this point, our preliminary results do not allow us to conclude that tank feeding does more than transiently raise the TOC levels; we have not yet looked at tank water TOC levels upon C-dosing, but those studies are on the to-do list. I do believe, based upon our results and lots of independent studies reported in the literature, that photosynthesis (corals, phytoplankton) is a major source of TOC in aquarium water.
There are several methods for TOC removal, as discussed above (microbe consumption, skimming, GAC or other media(?)). If TOC removal vastly outstripped TOC addition, then the tank water's TOC level may drop below natural reef levels, which I presume (but don't really know) to be bad. So, its probably a good thing that bubbles (skimmers) are not so good at removing TOC, and that most aquarists use relatively small amounts of GAC (or leave it in place long after it has saturated). In this way, we do remove some of the TOC by these filtration methods, but not really enough to either drop the TOC value below natural reef values, or to disrupt the natural equilibrium with the microbial TOC consumers that do most of the work.

FWIW, we also have been working on measuring bacterial components of tank water as a function of various factors (feeding, skimming, etc), but we have not yet developed a robust and trustworthy bacteria assay so I can't report much progress on this front.

Ken
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14442393#post14442393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Phosphate is easily removed with GFO, but nitrogen (particularly nitrate) reduction will still remain a benefit of refugia.

Many ways to skin a cat...especially when it comes to nitrates. Phosphates are not so easy since you only have a few options. Refugia is certainly one of them. What if a particular tank doesn't have detectable nitrates but does have elevated phophate? This situation is not so uncommon given that denitrication takes place at a reasonable rate in many tanks. I'm definitely interested in reading the thread in question.

sirrus6 - thanks again. My small head just put two and two together with your last post. I didn't realize that you were a part of the four studies you attached in your last post. I refer to the latter two often when folks ask about when/how to apply GAC in their tanks, especially in terms of recommended flow rates. Might you be willing to 'suggest' what could be coming out in any future articles regarding such? :cool:
 
Back
Top