Liquid cooled LEDs light fixture

[BeanAnimal]

Sounds reasonable enough... Though a "little" in our case would likely be a whole bottle... as it is only 3% to begin with

I would bet you guys use 30% or stronger (instead paying to ship WATER).

 

[widmer]

For test i'm using water but finally i gonna use coolant which gonna lower temperature about 10-15 degree extra.

Where did this notion come from? All things being equal, your fluid would have to have greater heat capacity than water, which no store-bought item does that I'm familiar with. But I'm guessing in this application that even adding another fluid with a greater heat capacity wouldn't give you any realizable drop in temperature. See below.

"coolant" will not lower the temperature of the system and will in fact raise it. "Coolant" has less heat capacity than water and is used to prevent systems from freezing or change their boiling points.

In theory this is absolutely true, but in practice with LEDs it probably isn't going to make any difference one way or the other. Even a 30% mix of propylene glycol/water is going to have 93.5% the heat capacity of water alone. And they just aren't producing heat fast enough for this difference to matter.

The primary problem with using a glycol might in fact be that the viscosity will decrease the flow rate that your pump can acheive. You're going to want something less viscous, but most importantly like others have mentioned, with antibacterial properties. Such as a dash of standard rubbing alcohol.

What I'm guessing would make the biggest difference is a faster flow rate to exchange the cooling solution much more quickly between the heat sink and heat dissipator, as well as increase the efficiency of the dissipator.

Also, in order for your system to do the best job removing the heat from the room as it was originally intended to, you may want to consider actually insulating the LED fixture, so that less heat is transferring into the immediate surroundings, and it is being taken up more by the cooling solution. This could be as simple as packaging it into a nice acrylic enclosure, and this would remove any concern for poisoning your tank if it leaks as well.

 

[PurpleMonster]

very interesting, have always been a fan of water cooling in my PC's and seeing this is really cool, thanks for sharing!

 

[BeanAnimal]

In theory this is absolutely true, but in practice with LEDs it probably isn't going to make any difference one way or the other. Even a 30% mix of propylene glycol/water is going to have 93.5% the heat capacity of water alone. And they just aren't producing heat fast enough for this difference to matter.

Yes, in this size system with the heat load we are considering, it means little. The point to walk away with was that using "coolant" instead of water will not increase the thermal capacity or efficiency of the system.

The primary problem with using a glycol might in fact be that the viscosity...

Like the specific heat, the viscocity is of little consequence in this size application

We don't know how many Watts of LEDs he is running, but the system may have more heat to deal with than one would think at first blush. Heatsinks with active fans can move a lot of heat. The "radiator" needs to have at least the same surface area and airflow as the heatsinks would have if built into the fixture. You don't gain anything magic by moving the heat away using water.

 

[mcgyvr]

Interesting..huge overkill.. but still interesting.

If you want to keep the heat out of the room then just duct in fresh and exhaust air from/to the outside and keep the fixture enclosed.

Just make sure it doesn't leak... Corals/fish aren't won't be happy with coolant dripping into the tank. I'd just angle the splash guard so if there ever is a leak it will NOT go into the tank.

 

[MK]

Guys I'm glad to see that many post in my thread, thank you very much for all suggestions I hope this gonna help for some future projects !!!
I just got back home after work and gonna try to answer any questions as soon as I can.

Regards,
mark

 

[widmer]

Like the specific heat, the viscocity is of little consequence in this size application

Glycols can become very syrupy depending the concentration, and depending on the pump, this could have a very significant impact on the rate that the pump is circulating the solution.

While a 50% propylene glycol/water mix might only decrease the heat capacity by 15%, this viscosity could drastically decrease the flow rate as it buids back pressure along its tortuous route through the LED bank and radiator - it's not unreasonable to consider that the flow rate may decrease to a fraction of what pure water's flow rate may have been.

This could in turn prove to be very important as the solution travels from beginning to end down a bank of LEDs as heat accumulates in the solution.

 

[MK]

Where did this notion come from? All things being equal, your fluid would have to have greater heat capacity than water, which no store-bought item does that I'm familiar with. But I'm guessing in this application that even adding another fluid with a greater heat capacity wouldn't give you any realizable drop in temperature.

This information coming from people who was using destilating water and changet it for coolant.
When i said coolant it doesn't mean automotive antifreez, it means coolant for PC's cooling systems.
Asuming, in your opinion it make no any sense to buy coolant cause it's just money wasting ant it don't gonna help, regular destilating water will do the same job? Interesting...
I'm not an expert and have no idea who is right but i know what i gonna do
simply gonna buy two liters of PC's coolant and will try then i'll let you guys know.

here are some info about stuff im using in my project:

Radiator:

"¢Two-pass U-flow tank configuration
"¢Custom MaxFin 25 micron Copper Splitter Fin Configuration utilizing 45% thinner fin material yielding up to 50% less pressure drop even with twice the fin density
"¢Unique fin configuration eliminates intra-louver accumulation of dust particles for trouble free operation
"¢Ultra-high 30 FPI (Fins Per Inch) fin density providing dramatically increased heat transfer surface area
"¢Custom low-profile 19.0 x 1.2mm MaxFlow tubes with 15% more waterside surface area and 60% frontal area reduction for superior low air-resistance aerodynamics and lower internal flow requirements
"¢Yields up to 20% more heat exchange capacity than the Black Ice Pro in both Stealth or Performance modes
"¢Achieves Black Ice Xtreme II level performance in stealth mode (low-noise/low-airflow conditions)
"¢M4 Threaded (works with 6-32 also) Screw Holes for easier mounting and greater adaptability
"¢Now standard G 1/4" female threaded fittings
"¢Full high-temper brass structural construction for weight reduction and superior corrosion resistance
"¢High performance compact radiator compatible as an upgrade to the Black Ice Pro 2 and most 240mm form factor radiators
"¢Uses 100% Non-corrosive water-solluble fluxing process
"¢Lead-free construction for environmental protection and RoHS compliance
"¢Full electrostatic polyurethane painting finish for uniform coating with high temperature curing for increased finish durability
"¢Renowned Black Ice quality
"¢Radiator Dimensions: 133mm wide x 277mm tall x 29.6mm thick

 

[stugray]

If I were you I would not use copper anywhere in the system.

Any liquid you run through the system will likely become saturated with copper so a leak will be disastrous regardless what liquid you choose.

Also, even running the hydrogen peroxide in distilled water will eventually corrode through the aluminum. You just wont know if it will be 2 years or 20.

Ask me how I know ;-) We have had TWO spacecraft with distilled water dripping out of them using high quality aluminum D-tube heatsinks.

Stu

 

[widmer]

Don't use PC coolant, use this instead: http://www.amazon.com/Petco-PETCO-Betta-Water/dp/B003IMMJ2E :lolspin:

I'm just playing, but maybe the PC coolant does have some sort of benefit for the system it is designed for ie prevents corrosion, but I would be surprised if it has greater actual cooling capacity. Do you have a link?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Glycols can become very syrupy depending the concentration, and depending on the pump, this could have a very significant impact on the rate that the pump is circulating the solution.

Using the 30% concentration that you used to assert that the specific heat was not an issue, the viscosity would also not be an issue and I have merely pointed that out

Of course high viscosity solutions can be too viscous to pump and therefore have a negative affect on cooling. Nobody has said or inferred anything to the contrary. However, like most information, there needs to be some context added to "viscous".

Since you appear to have interest:

Viscosity in centipoises at 70 F
Distilled water (the recommended coolant) : 1.00
Sea water : 1.8
30% aqueous PG: 2.25 - 3
Blood : 5 - 10
2% milk : 5
50% aqueous PG: 8.0
100% PG : 16
Vit D milk : 20
SAE 10 (lightweight) Oil : 65
Corn Oil : 75
Olive Oil : 90
Karo Syrup : 3,000 - 5,000


As you can see even at a 50% concentration, the viscosity is still very low with respect to what a small pump can handle.

Where the viscocity becomes an issue is an a system (such as a large chilled water plant) where the PUMPS are tuned for a specific concentration so that the cooling towers are presented with a known load. Change the concentration and the viscocity change results in a net heat change in the system and the cooling towers do not behave as expected...

Have fun playing in the kitchen tonight

 

[MK]

Where did this notion come from? All things being equal, your fluid would have to have greater heat capacity than water, which no store-bought item does that I'm familiar with. But I'm guessing in this application that even adding another fluid with a greater heat capacity wouldn't give you any realizable drop in temperature.

This information coming from people who was using destilating water and changet it for coolant. But i messed gallons/liters with C/F degrees I should say about 5-8*C/F difference not 10-15*C/F ! is my bad I'm sorry for my mistake.
When i said coolant it doesn't mean automotive antifreez, it means coolant for PC's cooling systems.
Asuming, in your opinion it make no any sense to buy coolant cause it's just money wasting ant it don't gonna help, regular destilating water will do the same job? Interesting...
I'm not an expert and have no idea who is right but i know what i gonna do
simply gonna buy two liters of PC's coolant and will try then i'll let you guys know.

here are some info about stuff im using in my project:

Radiator:

"¢Two-pass U-flow tank configuration
"¢Custom MaxFin 25 micron Copper Splitter Fin Configuration utilizing 45% thinner fin material yielding up to 50% less pressure drop even with twice the fin density
"¢Unique fin configuration eliminates intra-louver accumulation of dust particles for trouble free operation
"¢Ultra-high 30 FPI (Fins Per Inch) fin density providing dramatically increased heat transfer surface area
"¢Custom low-profile 19.0 x 1.2mm MaxFlow tubes with 15% more waterside surface area and 60% frontal area reduction for superior low air-resistance aerodynamics and lower internal flow requirements
"¢Yields up to 20% more heat exchange capacity than the Black Ice Pro in both Stealth or Performance modes
"¢Achieves Black Ice Xtreme II level performance in stealth mode (low-noise/low-airflow conditions)
"¢M4 Threaded (works with 6-32 also) Screw Holes for easier mounting and greater adaptability
"¢Now standard G 1/4" female threaded fittings
"¢Full high-temper brass structural construction for weight reduction and superior corrosion resistance
"¢High performance compact radiator compatible as an upgrade to the Black Ice Pro 2 and most 240mm form factor radiators
"¢Uses 100% Non-corrosive water-solluble fluxing process
"¢Lead-free construction for environmental protection and RoHS compliance
"¢Full electrostatic polyurethane painting finish for uniform coating with high temperature curing for increased finish durability
"¢Renowned Black Ice quality
"¢Radiator Dimensions: 133mm wide x 277mm tall x 29.6mm thick

Fan:

I ordered those and hope they will come this week...

The Feser Company and Noiseblocker team up and create the worlds first liquid cooling optimized 120mm fans! Taking the best of both companies ideas and combining them gives birth to the Triebwerk Series. Countless testing and prototypes were created to fine tune this king of the fan. Although created with liquid cooling in mind it is still a great all around fan for high CFM, high static pressure applications!
The TFC Triebwerk TK-122 120mm x 55mm Mid Speed Fan is the mid speed version of the Triebwerk Series fans. The Triebwerk fans are optimized for liquid cooled radiators with many features and abilities that normal fans do not possess. The NB-Nano-SLI® bearings used in these fans are lifetime-optimized precision bearings for low-vibration, quiet operation, and improved reliability. Built in fan silencers are used to created the quietest possible environment and comes directly from the NB-Mult******® technology. The silicon inserts are reversible as one side is flush with the fan housing to create a seal with radiators. The other side extends past the housing to create a barrier between fan and chassis or heatsink for maximum noise reduction. The 55mm thickness of the Triebwerks creates a larger blade size and allows much different blade angles to create a staggering CFM to dBA ratio. (88.4CFM,30dBA) Each fan comes with a "piggy back" cable to daisy chain multiple fans together without the use of cable splitters and messy cabling. This allows even quad radiators to be cooled with a single cable connection.


Dimensions: 120 x 120 x 55mm
Weight: 190g
Rated Voltage: 12~13.2V
Starting Voltage: 4.5V
Operating Voltage: 4.5~13.5V
Input Power: 3.48W
Input Current: 0.29~0.51A
RPM: 1800±10%
Static Pressure: 3.380mm - H2O max
Air Flow: 88.4CFM
150.2 m3/h max
Acoustic Noise: 30dBA Max
Lifetime MTFB minimum: 80,000 Hours
Operating Temp: -10°C ~ +70°C
Storage Temp: -40°C ~ +70°C
Material Frame: PC (Polycarbonat)
Material Impeller: PC (Polycarbonat)
Bearing System: NBNanoSLI - Sleeve
Connector: 4-Pin Molex
3-Pin Molex Tacho

Few comments from users:

Great Fan
09-08-2010
Reviewer: Mike M (1)
This is a great premium fan. It comes with sensible accessories such as two different sized sets of screws suitable for radiator mounting, sleeved 3-pin extension cable, and 3-pin to 4-pin molex cable. They are pretty loud at 100% power. Use these with a fan controller if you want quiet cooling with lots of headroom. They do allow daisy-chaining the 3-pin power, you should be able to run two of these on a quality 1 amp fan controller channel.

Probably the BEST radiator fan on the market...
07-18-2010
Reviewer: peateargryphon (2)
As several others mention, this is a perfect compliment to an H50 and still keeps the total price reasonable compared to "real" water cooling solutions. The combo keeps my 980x cool @4.2GHz, 12 threads of prime 95 and it stays under 70C after hours!?!? All with a pleasant whoosh of air vs comparable performing fans. Impressive.

Noiseblocker?
06-20-2010
Reviewer: Wazooty (1)
On their own, they sound great, all you can hear is the tons of air this this pushes air. When hooked up to a radiator they create some noise which I would certainly classify as loud. The radiator acts as a whistle and all that air is blowing into it constantly. It''s great if you''re benchmarking, using as a case fan, or just flat out don''t care about noise, but if you care about sound at ALL, look elsewhere.

Best so far.
05-23-2010
Reviewer: Zver711 (13)
I''ve been looking. Long time. Far and wide. Ordered many fans, as well have returned. I''ve searched for a perfect marriage of power (airflow) and low noise. Now I have IT. This fan is incredible, has very good specs, and nonetheless QUIET, I can''t overemphasize this here. Delta fans around 100 CFM rating give you headache, but this one is very quiet. Quiet, but NOT silent, so don''t get me wrong. No motor noise, just air whooshing through the frame. Rubber helps lower vibration, daisy-chaining possible, so in a rad set-up, its a big help. Those who have the space to mount it as a case fan (like I) should do it. This baby makes all the difference. The only con is price, but you really get what you''ve paid for. Of course I haven''t tested this one by time, so I have no idea how resilient it is, but I''m hoping for the best. I''ve put a little video review and testing on the Tube, if anyone cares: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP3LyyXklyQ

Strong and not so silent type...
05-15-2010
Reviewer: MedRed (7)
The quality of this fan is awesome. The extension cables help to reduce the clutter if you''re stringing several together. These are not very quiet at all. For the expense, there are less expensive possibilities out there

Pump:

The Danger Den DD-CPX1 12V 3-Pin Powered Pump is literally this is the smallest pump we've seen. This pump is so small and compact you can install it virtually anywhere. With stock G1/4" thread type for the barbs it is also very versatile and will work for any system! Get the best value for the dollar in your system with this pump rated at 500L/hr (132 gallons/hr).

"¢Silent operation - Mag Drive Ceramic Bearing Operation
"¢Lower power consumption - 6W
"¢Small Size
"¢Uses 3 Pin Motherboard Header

Model: DD-CPX1
Rated Voltage: DC 12V ± 10%
Starting Voltage: DC 8V
Voltage Range: DC 8V - 13.2V
Power: 6W
Load Current: 0.5A
Flow Rate: 500 L/hr
132 GPH
H-max: 2 meters
6.6 feet
Dimensions: 46x61x60mm
1.8x2.4x2.4 inches
Max Water Temp: 65°C
149°F
Fitting Ports: G 1/4 BSPP
Power Connector: 3-Pin
Polarity Protection: Circuit is protected if Vcc and Ground are switched for up to 30 seconds

Coolant:

Not decidet yet which one i gonna use but have some points...
I'm interested to try Feser and PC ICE...

some user comment about Feser:

Thank God... It works!
02-22-2008
Reviewer: pnapp1 (2)
I''ll say this... this stuff works!!! Just redid my video cards loop. Just to get to the facts... I had a serious leak that was not visible on prim and refill of the loop... suddenly saw a big green puddle just under my PC. I freaked & shut my rig down. Upon inspection my $$$ PC Power-N-Cooling PSU was powering my PC while in a 1/4" of Feser One. To keep it short... not a thing happened to my PC. There is dust in my PSU and it still did not short out. THIS STUFF IS GOLD!!! My temps are also down 3C idle (8800GTX @ 46C) and 6C load (8800GTX @ 52C) from the Fluid XP I was using before. Highly Recommended!

Few words about PC ICE:
PC ICE is a revolutionary development in liquid cooling. Specially formulated to improve today's most advanced PC cooling systems. PC ICE overcomes the shortcomings of competitive fluids available on the market today. Testing has revealed that PC ICE is capable of staying within 2C* of standard water, while maintaining its non-conductive** nature as well as lubricating properties.
PC ICE is specially formulated with lubricating properties to increase pump life and contains corrosive inhibiting ingredients to cut down on internal build up and galvanic corrosion. PC ICE is safe on all plastic, rubber and miscellaneous gasket materials as well as Non-Toxic, biodegradable and environmentally safe. PC ICE is formulated for high flow pumps and is not prone to mechanical sheering. It is as clear and acceptable to use with color adding dye for aesthetic purposes. PC ICE has a 3 year shelf life, is non-conductive and has a freeze point below -60°F.

Features:

"¢Non-Conductive
"¢Freeze point below -60°F (-51°C)
"¢2-5°C gain in thermal efficiency
"¢Available in UV Reactive Colors
"¢Pre-Mixed - just add it to the system (color dye added by user)

Maybe this is not true and water will be better, we will see soon...

Regards,
mark

 

[MK]

Found my bad and fixed my post but i dont know why i cant modify my posts? i'm sorry for mess...

 

[BeanAnimal]

MK

If the product does not specifically list the thermal capacity in STANDARD units as tested, then it is a 100% scam. You can't cheat physics even if 10,000 nitwits on a PC cooling forum swear you can

Some thoughts:
That "non conductive" fluid will quickly become conductive as it mixes with the metal pipe it is traveling in. There is no way around this.

They mention it stays within 2C of standard water. That did not say 2C better, they said WITHIN 2C. That means 2C higher system temp, not lower.

Do you need -60F freeze protection?

Save your money my friend and use distilled water and some hydrogen peroxide

 

[MK]

If I were you I would not use copper anywhere in the system.

Any liquid you run through the system will likely become saturated with copper so a leak will be disastrous regardless what liquid you choose.

Also, even running the hydrogen peroxide in distilled water will eventually corrode through the aluminum. You just wont know if it will be 2 years or 20.

Ask me how I know ;-) We have had TWO spacecraft with distilled water dripping out of them using high quality aluminum D-tube heatsinks.

Stu

I don't even want to think about it...
I'm planning to do some plexiglass protection just in case.
Great suggestion.

Regards,
mark

 

[MK]

MK

If the product does not specifically list the thermal capacity in STANDARD units as tested, then it is a 100% scam. You can't cheat physics even if 10,000 nitwits on a PC cooling forum swear you can

Some thoughts:
That "non conductive" fluid will quickly become conductive as it mixes with the metal pipe it is traveling in. There is no way around this.

They mention it stays within 2C of standard water. That did not say 2C better, they said WITHIN 2C. That means 2C higher system temp, not lower.

Do you need -60F freeze protection?

Come one I don't even want to know how much I spend already for this project... $20-30 will not make any difference...
But I'm not saying you guys are not right !!! like I said before I have no idea about it and all I can do is try and compare

Regards,
mark
Save your money my friend and use distilled water and some hydrogen peroxide

 

[MK]

MK

If the product does not specifically list the thermal capacity in STANDARD units as tested, then it is a 100% scam. You can't cheat physics even if 10,000 nitwits on a PC cooling forum swear you can

Some thoughts:
That "non conductive" fluid will quickly become conductive as it mixes with the metal pipe it is traveling in. There is no way around this.

They mention it stays within 2C of standard water. That did not say 2C better, they said WITHIN 2C. That means 2C higher system temp, not lower.

Do you need -60F freeze protection?


Save your money my friend and use distilled water and some hydrogen peroxide

Come one I don't even want to know how much I spend already for this project... $20-30 will not make any difference...
But I'm not saying you guys are not right !!! like I said before I have no idea about it and all I can do is try and compare

Regards,
mark

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why not spend the $20-$30 on beer and enjoy the tank instead of wasting it on a scam targeted at the water cooled PC fools

 

[Seeing Green]

The other thing to consider is that, as i understand the pictures you are cooling these in series, so your lase set of LED's wont have heat moved as efficiently as the first few. You may want to plumb the tubes in parallel. This would also allow you the ability to remove a beam if it starts to fail. On the plus side, it would also allow you to plumb the pipes together in space not directly above your tank.

Just a thought... interesting none the less!

 

[widmer]

"coolant" will not lower the temperature of the system and will in fact raise it. "Coolant" has less heat capacity than water and is used to prevent systems from freezing or change their boiling points.

You should be using distilled water with an anti-microbial agent in it, as things WILL tend to grow in the closed loop and coat the surfaces, reducing the efficiency.

Using the 30% concentration that you used to assert that the specific heat was not an issue, the viscosity would also not be an issue and I have merely pointed that out

As you can see even at a 50% concentration, the viscosity is still very low with respect to what a small pump can handle.

Assuming that PG in the data above has been abbreviated from propylene glycol, rather than polyethylene glycol, at a 50% polypropylene concentration, if we have a 15% decrease in heat capacity, but it is 800% the viscosity of water, then there is in fact very large disparity in the way these two properties of the solution have been affected by the addition of propylene glycol.

In this case it is easy to see that while the loss in heat capacity may be negligible, the increase in viscosity may have a profound impact on the flow rate of the pump. When we are taking into account the effect that microbial activity may have on the system's efficiency, by all means it might be good to pay attention to viscosity after all as well. :celeb1: