Live Rock/Live Sand Questions

[CLeadfootS]

I have a 150 gallon tank and I added 140 pounds of live sand and 130 pounds of live rock 5 days ago. I'm curious as to when I might see my ammonia and nitrates and nitrites go up? Right now all my levels are still at 0. Also, when might I find any hitchhikers or corals or anything in or on these rocks come out. I stare at these rocks forever waiting to see if something moves!

 

[sczlars]

Depending on your live rock, if it is well "cured" already, you might not see any sort of cycle until you start feeding your tank. If it is uncured LR, then you'll have some dieoff causing a spike in ammonia etc. levels.

Maybe time to add a couple of pieces of cocktail shrimp?

No life at all on the rock? Any small feather dusters, brittle stars?

 

[CLeadfootS]

Sorry, I very new to all this. I had to google what a brittle star was. No, I haven't seen any brittle stars or feather dusters. My LFS told me the rock is "semi" cured. It's was curing for two weeks but there is normal die off in transit to my house. I was just kinda curious because I was looking forward to seeing something. Maybe I'm still a little early in the curing process to see anything?

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

Do you have any pictures?

 

[CLeadfootS]

I can post pictures later tonight. I'm not home at the moment.

 

[sczlars]

Hmm... I think it depends a lot on your rock. Should have something, though...

If it were me, start feeding the tank something to help prepare it for some bio-load. If nothing shows up on the rock, you can always buy another piece or two later that has critters on it. Same for the sand, you might want to seed it with sand from another tank that has worms, etc. that are good.

 

[CLeadfootS]

That's a good idea except I wanted to do a little something different with this tank. I went with live rock, live sand, refugium in the sump. My old tank has dead sand, dead rock, and bio balls. I used natures ocean bio activ black live sand on my new setup where my old tank has regular colored sand.

 

[CLeadfootS]

Maybe I am too new to live rock to realize what exactly I am looking at. I can try and feed the tank when I get home and see what happens. I know I have some bristle worms in my old tank I can try to find and put in the new tank.

Just from everything I have read on RC it seems that my tank being cycled in 5 days seems impossible.

 

[Angel*Fish]

You have to test the water to know. There is no way to know for sure otherwise without risking animals. If everything reads zero (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) then start feeding the tank as if you had a couple of fish and keep testing. The results will tell you whether you're cycled or cycling.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

If the live rock is cured and there is no die off, there is nothing producing ammonia so there is nothing to start a cycle.
Put some raw shrimp in there and test for ammonia daily for a week or two.
If you never see a spike then you are ready for a low bioload. Just don't go out and buy any $100 fish.
Add two or three small fish and see how it goes. If it goes badly wait a month or two before making anymore additions. If it goes well add 1 small fish every two weeks until you have the livestock you want.

 

[Angel*Fish]

If the live rock is cured and there is no die off, there is nothing producing ammonia so there is nothing to start a cycle.
Put some raw shrimp in there and test for ammonia daily for a week or two.
If you never see a spike then you are ready for a low bioload. Just don't go out and buy any $100 fish.
Add two or three small fish and see how it goes. If it goes badly wait a month or two before making anymore additions. If it goes well add 1 small fish every two weeks until you have the livestock you want.

I am stunned that anyone would post such a thing.

To the OP there is no reason to operate blind or by the seat of your pants or what ever the hell that is. Just test your water and if you don't understand what the results mean, please post them or feel free to pm me with them.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I am stunned that anyone would post such a thing.

To the OP there is no reason to operate blind or by the seat of your pants or what ever the hell that is. Just test your water and if you don't understand what the results mean, please post them or feel free to pm me with them.

How exactly is testing daily for ammonia "operating blindly or by the seat of your pants" ?

I am stunned that you are stunned.

 

[Angel*Fish]

For starters you don't just test for ammonia only. Most people also wait for nitrites to come down. Testing for ammonia only would only work if he's indeed already cycled and he's only having a little spike. Still, wouldn't it be nice to know what nitrates are?

Further, if his tank is already cycled, why on earth pollute it with a dead shrimp?

But what you wrote that I highlighted in pink below was what I was referring to as operating blind. I can think of several other comments for it also.
"...then you are ready for a low bioload. Just don't go out and buy any $100 fish.
Add two or three small fish and see how it goes. If it goes badly wait a month or two before making anymore additions. If it goes well add 1 small fish every two weeks until you have the livestock you want."

 

[CLeadfootS]

Sorry everybody, I didn't want to start an argument. I am just trying to find the best answers I can. I know everybody on RC are very smart when it comes to things like this.

My nitrates are 0.
My nitrites are 0.
My ammonia is 0.

These test results have been this way since I put the rock in. I haven't seen any kind of spike of anything yet.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Sorry everybody, I didn't want to start an argument. I am just trying to find the best answers I can. I know everybody on RC are very smart when it comes to things like this.

My nitrates are 0.
My nitrites are 0.
My ammonia is 0.

These test results have been this way since I put the rock in. I haven't seen any kind of spike of anything yet.

If everything reads zero (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) then start feeding the tank as if you had a couple of fish and keep testing.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

For starters you don't just test for ammonia only. Most people also wait for nitrites to come down. Testing for ammonia only would only work if he's indeed already cycled and he's only having a little spike. Still, wouldn't it be nice to know what nitrates are?

Further, if his tank is already cycled, why on earth pollute it with a dead shrimp?

But what you wrote that I highlighted in pink below was what I was referring to as operating blind. I can think of several other comments for it also.
"...then you are ready for a low bioload. Just don't go out and buy any $100 fish.
Add two or three small fish and see how it goes. If it goes badly wait a month or two before making anymore additions. If it goes well add 1 small fish every two weeks until you have the livestock you want."

Did I say not to test anything else?
As I said in my original post if there is not an ammonia source what is there to cycle? If the tank is cycled it should be able to process the ammonia produced by the shrimp, and it would not "pollute" the tank.
The reason I wrote what you highlighted is that I know form experience that just because your tests show every thing is good things do not always go well for a myriad of reasons that you obviously don't understand, but you have more posts than I do so I must bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

And to the OP you in no way started an argument, Angel*Fish jumping to convulsions did.:wavehand:

 

[Angel*Fish]

Leadfoot, I hope you don't really think you started anything. And I hope you're able to find some answers here. The hitchhikers you're looking forward to will start showing up with time. They do need food. Keep looking, they'll show up. Some you will see soon and others maybe not for months.

If your nitrites and ammonia stay at zero and you see nitrate starting to climb after a week of feeding the tank, then you know you are "cycled" and you'll be seeing stuff any day. If you get a diatom bloom, you'll start seeing lots of pods.

If your tank does have to hard cycle, you can do your best to protect the life on the rock by doing water changes during the cycle to keep ammonia levels low. The cycles primarily happen on the rocks, so it doesn't prevent growth of beneficial bacteria.

Did I say not to test anything else? You do realize the OP can't read your mind, right?
As I said in my original post if there is not an ammonia source what is there to cycle? If the tank is cycled it should be able to process the ammonia produced by the shrimp, and it would not "pollute" the tank. Putting a whole dead shrimp in there is adding a huge bioload which is many times the load you'd put on the system by adding one small live fish. Depending on the amount of denitrifying bacteria present in the rock, it could do anything from handling it, though probably with an ammonia spike, to crashing it and starting a whole new hard cycle. That's why you add one fish at a time to a cycled tank, to allow the bacteria to catch up and build higher populations. Why risk life on the expensive LR?
The reason I wrote what you highlighted is that I know form experience that just because your tests show every thing is good things do not always go well for a myriad of reasons that you obviously don't understand, I sure don't understand why you'd randomly tell someone to let his tank go fallow for one to two months because a fish died. but you have more posts than I do so I must bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

And to the OP you in no way started an argument, Angel*Fish jumping to convulsions did.:wavehand:

 

[thegrun]

I'll weigh in on Uncle Salty's side here. I believe Angel misread/misunderstood his advice, it is sound. If after adding a dead raw shrimp or two and waiting the two weeks suggested you don't see an ammonia spike, you should be fine to slowly add fish. Yes, I would be sure the nitrites have stayed at zero, but with no ammonia to feed the bacteria, it would be very unusual to see any kind of a nitrite spike.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I'll weigh in on Uncle Salty's side here. I believe Angel misread/misunderstood his advice, it is sound. If after adding a dead raw shrimp or two and waiting the two weeks suggested you don't see an ammonia spike, you should be fine to slowly add fish. Yes, I would be sure the nitrites have stayed at zero, but with no ammonia to feed the bacteria, it would be very unusual to see any kind of a nitrite spike.

Thank you sir.
I did (possibly wrongly) assume the OP understood the nitrogen cycle, and did not see the need to treat them like a child.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I'll weigh in on Uncle Salty's side here. I believe Angel misread/misunderstood his advice, it is sound. If after adding a dead raw shrimp or two and waiting the two weeks suggested you don't see an ammonia spike, you should be fine to slowly add fish. Yes, I would be sure the nitrites have stayed at zero, but with no ammonia to feed the bacteria, it would be very unusual to see any kind of a nitrite spike.

No, the difference is your advice and Salty's advice both make assumptions about information you don't have. Throwing a whole shrimp in a tank with 130 lbs of live rock is old school.