Live rock question

Kristine

Kristine

New member
I've decided to broaden my horizons, and set up a salt water tank! I've had fresh water community tanks all my life, and in the past 5 years, I've been keeping discus, so although I have some understanding, I need a lot of help with this new venture. My tank is 90gl.
#1, if I purchase live rock that has been cultured, do I still need to cure it? What kind of rocks should be used as base rocks, and do they need any special attention prior to putting them in the tank?
#2 When using live sand, does it need curing? If so, what keeps the benificial bacteria alive in the sand if I have no fish to feed it during the curing process?
Thanks for helping, and please be patient with me, as I have a zillion questions! Kristine
 
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If you get "live" rock from your LFS, it shouldn't need any curing and there won't be much, if any, die off, but it, in most cases, will be live in name only. If you purchase from someplace like Tampa Bay Saltwater, it will be loaded with life but should be cured because of the inevitable die off during shipping.

I start all my tanks with dry rock. It allows for aquascaping without worrying about die off. Just keep arranging it until you like it, add sand, and then water. There are several ways to then get the cycle started.

IMHO, spending $$$ on "live" sand is a waste of your hard-earned money that can be better spent on other stuff. And there is plenty of other stuff to spend $$$ on in this hobby!

Read the stickies and come back with more questions!!!
 
There is no die off with live rock that is shipped correctly...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2510519

unfortunately nobody ships real live rock underwater and same day as I do, which results in live rock that is as it was in the ocean when you get it, and not the 'live rock' that is imported and shipped in a dry condition for days before you receive it, that rock is where the term 'curing' rock originated....better name is bringing dead and dying rock back to life.



Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin3::spin3::spin3:
 
1. It is hard to predict if the live rock you receive has been truly cycled and is ready to use, if it has been out of the water too long and has had so much die-off that it will cause a new cycle or if it is good to go. I would error on the side of caution and cycle and new live rock.
2. I would advise against using live sand and just use dry sand for the following reasons: it is questionable how much life is really left inside the bag of sand when you receive it, you pay more for live sand since you are paying for the water it is shipped in, both live and dry sand should be rinsed well before you use it to remove the fines (dust caused by the sand grains rubbing against each other during sipping), but with live sand you need to use saltwater to rinse the sand or you will kill anything that still is alive in the sand if you use fresh water.
 
billdogg said:
If you get "live" rock from your LFS, it shouldn't need any curing and there won't be much, if any, die off, but it, in most cases, will be live in name only. If you purchase from someplace like Tampa Bay Saltwater, it will be loaded with life but should be cured because of the inevitable die off during shipping.

I start all my tanks with dry rock. It allows for aquascaping without worrying about die off. Just keep arranging it until you like it, add sand, and then water. There are several ways to then get the cycle started.

IMHO, spending $$$ on "live" sand is a waste of your hard-earned money that can be better spent on other stuff. And there is plenty of other stuff to spend $$$ on in this hobby!

Read the stickies and come back with more questions!!!
Click to expand...


Ok...I read the stickies in the beginners section, and I'm more confused than ever!
I take it that step 1 is filling the tank with dechloinated salt water (mixed as per instructions on the bag of salt) what is step 2? Since you talked me out of live sand, what sand do you reccomend? Do I add this sand next? I'm thing that the next step is base rock? Can I use any rocks that I find outside? Do they need any treatment? Kristine
 
Kristine said:
Ok...I read the stickies in the beginners section, and I'm more confused than ever!
I take it that step 1 is filling the tank with dechloinated salt water (mixed as per instructions on the bag of salt) what is step 2? Since you talked me out of live sand, what sand do you reccomend? Then what? Live rock? Kristine
Click to expand...

One of the big differences between freshwater and saltwater is the water itself - you shouldn't really use tapwater in a saltwater aquarium, even dechlorinated/conditioned tapwater. You should use RO/DI water. You can buy an RO/DI system and make it yourself or buy it (I buy 10 gallons of RO/DI and 10 gallons of pre-mixed saltwater almost every week, and it gives me an excuse to visit my local store).

Don't use rocks from outside. All of your base rock should also be live or formerly live (dry) rock.

Rock should go in first, get it nice and stable, then add the (rinsed) sand, then the water. :) I agree that you don't need live sand. It will become live over time and can be sped up by adding a cup or so of sand from someone else's tank.
 
Live rock question

Kristine said:
Ok...I read the stickies in the beginners section, and I'm more confused than ever!
Kristine
Click to expand...


Not to be a curmudgeon... But I probably am. Lol.

The sticky in question (SETTING UP) can't be read in a couple of hours. It's a humongous book, each chapter is a different link. :)

Eventually you'll want to know everything in there, but now on day 1, you should really focus on salt issues and cycling. You can memorize the rest tonight. Lol.

Take notes. Lots. It's like a graduate level textbook in there. Dense. Valuable. Interesting. :) The proverbial rabbit hole.

Quick question: are you using RO/DI water? If not then yes, dechlorinating is a must. (In my limited mental morning capacity I may have missed this in your post).

Welcome to the addiction.

-ryan

***SETTING UP: HOW TO!!! Comprehensive list of articles for the newbie aquarist!!!***
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074
 
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Hi Kristine and welcome.
If you want to make things as easy as possible you need to do the following.
#1 buy 150 lbs of liverock from a reputable dealer. All I have gotten shipped to me had to be cured in a clean 44 gal. plastic garbage can for at least a week doing 100% water changes and scrubbing the rock with a plastic bristle scrubber every other day. I have never experienced rock that is shipped fully submerged. P.S. If you get rock from a local pet shop that you trust (i.e. they only deal with reef and saltwater fish) you should be able to put that straight in with a mild rinsing and scrubbing. You will pay a fortune at a pet shop though. This place on e-bay is very reasonably price and has great rock. http://www.ebay.com/usr/yahairacordero?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2754
I cured it for 2-weeks before placing it in the tank.

#2 Get enough live ARGONITE sand to create a 2-3" bed on the bottom of the tank. This is hard to find of the quality that will help your tank, but if you can get it the cycling process will be almost non-existent in the actual display tank. There was a guy on e-bay, but he is gone now as far as I can tell. He was the only one I would get live sand from. http://www.ebay.com/usr/ecoreefsand?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2754
Maybe you can find him on facebook or online somewhere. I am not on facebook;) To cycle this sand, which is really unnecessary IMO, just put it in the tank and run the filter (A SUMP IS A MUST) for the time you are curing the rock, doing biweekly water changes at 25% to = 4 all together.

#3 Let the system run without fish for a few days once you put in the rock, constantly checking your levels of nitrate, NH3, and nitrite. When levels are good then you can add a few fish. Start with Ocellaris clowns and some Mexican turbo snails. There is MUCH MUCH MUCH more. Reading is the best way to understand the rest and this site has all of it (more than you want really;). There are other ways to start a tank of course. This is just the way I have found to be the most convenient in my 30+ years of reef-keeping experience.

Good luck and let me know how it goes!:xlbirthday:
 
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The water is the most important thing! Please find RODI water to mix your salt. Use Reef Crystals to start until you understand your tank when mature and dosing procedures necessary. Be Careful. Startup is the time when you can give yourself more work if you're not careful. Sorry to sound so serious, but I just want you to enjoy this experience and not let it deter you from future ones.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I will be checking on you tonight.

Be Well Kristine:dance:
 
Live rock question

Oh one more major point...

There isn't always consensus on topics. Even how much rock to add can cause arguments. Depth of sand another issue.

But...

This board is here to help you NOT sell you. We are motivated by espousing good husbandry practices. LFSs must be at least partially motivated by sales. We are less biased. ;)

Read. Learn. Be informed. PATIENCE IS PARAMOUNT!!

-ryan

Ps - quick read:

Since we have so many new tanks this week---some advice.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2547716
 
powderblue1 said:
Hi Kristine and welcome.
If you want to make things as easy as possible you need to do the following.
#1 buy 150 lbs of liverock from a reputable dealer. All I have gotten shipped to me had to be cured in a clean 44 gal. plastic garbage can for at least a week doing 100% water changes and scrubbing the rock with a plastic bristle scrubber every other day. I have never experienced rock that is shipped fully submerged. P.S. If you get rock from a local pet shop that you trust (i.e. they only deal with reef and saltwater fish) you should be able to put that straight in with a mild rinsing and scrubbing. You will pay a fortune at a pet shop though. This place on e-bay is very reasonably price and has great rock. http://www.ebay.com/usr/yahairacordero?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2754
I cured it for 2-weeks before placing it in the tank.

#2 Get enough live ARGONITE sand to create a 2-3" bed on the bottom of the tank. This is hard to find of the quality that will help your tank, but if you can get it the cycling process will be almost non-existent in the actual display tank. There was a guy on e-bay, but he is gone now as far as I can tell. He was the only one I would get live sand from. http://www.ebay.com/usr/ecoreefsand?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2754
Maybe you can find him on facebook or online somewhere. I am not on facebook;) To cycle this sand, which is really unnecessary IMO, just put it in the tank and run the filter (A SUMP IS A MUST) for the time you are curing the rock, doing biweekly water changes at 25% to = 4 all together.

#3 Let the system run without fish for a few days constantly checking your levels of nitrate, NH3, and nitrite. When levels are good then you can add a few fish. Start with Ocellaris clowns and some Mexican turbo snails. There is MUCH MUCH MUCH more. Reading is the best way to understand the rest and this site has all of it (more than you want really;). There are other ways to start a tank of course. This is just the way I have found to be the most convenient in my 30+ years of reef-keeping experience.

Good luck and let me know how it goes!:xlbirthday:
Click to expand...


I would argue against several points in this post, not that they are necessarily wrong, but of course just a variance in opinion.

First off live rock from a reputable lfs should be good to go, shouldn't need any scrubbing. Most is not cured with intense enough lighting to have anything more then some diatom algae growing on it. It should be inspected for pest anemones and flatworm though. Look up majano and aptasia anemones. If you do rinse and scrub, make sure to use warm salt water of the proper temp and salinity you would use in your tank so you don't kill the rock.

Second, while a sump is the most popular way to run a reef system, it is definitely not a must. There a plenty of ways to run a system without one, especially a softy/easy spa system. Hang on back skimmer skimmers are available, and successful systems have been ran without them. While certainly having a sump is recommended for easy of filtration access and hiding it, as well as increased water volume, it is also increased cost.
 
Also, isn't 2-3" the no no range? 1/2-2" for non anaerobic shallow sand bed, 4-6 for a deep bed with anaerobic zones. Dry rock has its advantages, including lack of any potential pests and being able to take days or weeks to get your aquascape the way that you want it out of water. The downfall is that most people recommend treating this stuff extensively to remove stores nutrients before beginning a six week give or take, cycling period. Treatment includes "cooking" by basically soaking it in clean water and changing the water frequently to allow built up nutrients to leach out before being added to your tank. Others actually treat it with acid to clean it and accomplish nutrient reduction. "Live rock" that is shipped dry will have a ton of die of and needs to be cleaned, cured and cycled as others have mentioned. Live rock from the lfs is typically this kind of rock that has been sitting in a holding tank for a couple of weeks. I very rarely see a lfs with waste producing animals in their cycling bins, meaning that it will have limited "life" and most likely need a "cycle" in your aquarium to accumulate the correct amount of denitrifying bacteria. The live rock that Richard has at TBS is collected from the ocean, stored in sea water until it is shipped in sea water. You get all of the life that comes from the ocean. By far the most interesting stuff (more than fish and coral) that I have put in my tanks. It is also comparably priced or cheaper than "live rock" you would get from the lfs, but with the package you also get the sand, clean up crew and all kinds of things that you simply cannot get from rock that has been shipped dry. In the end, the you cannot beat the price either. Now for the option that hasn't been mentioned. Find a local reefer that is tearing down a well maintained system and selling his rock for 1-2 dollars a pound. Such a great way to get good quality rock. So many people have bins full of dry rock in their garages because they tore down a system and just let it dry out. If you can and do go that route, don't buy stuff from someone who is getting out because of aiptasia and hair algae. It comes with all the problems already built in. Cooked dry rock seeded by rock out of someone's tank is probably the cheapest, if not slowest way to get it done. TBS rock or rock from another good hobbyist's tank is probably quickest way with the biggest amount of life. LFS is good if you want to support the local economy and owner. Lots of different ways to get this done.
 
IMO, I would not start the aquarium without thinking about the filtration first. If you don't run a sump on a 90 gallon aquarium you will regret it.
 
I run a 2 1/2" bed and it has worked just fine for years. Over 3 is where I have run into trouble in the past 30-years. I don't really understand the rest of the nitpicking.:hmm4: I guess I will just say that "several" usually refers to more than two items. Be well and good luck Kristine. Send me some picks of your tank when it gets done.:beer:
 
If there is one absolute in reef keeping, it is that there is no absolute one right answer!

There are always different ways of doing things so you will always get more than one answer. In general, dead rock will become live so you can have base rock and live rock. I would not spend the extra money on "live" sand. You do need aragonite sand and not play sand type stuff though.

RO water is pretty consistently recommended for good reason. Lots of things in tap water including nutrients that will give you algae issues.

A sump is great but you can also get by with good filtration, powerheads, skimmer etc.

no offense to Richard at TBS at all, but I'm a little uncomfortable seeing a vendor offering their product to a newbie in the newbie forum....I actually think TBS is great and you would get great rock but this is not a sales forum. Just IMHO.

Anyway, have fun setting up, it's a fun project!!
 
A canister filter is something that can hold filter media. It will also trap detritus and can fuel nitrate issues is not cleaned regularly. It will become a PIA in short order. When it does, you will find excuses to put off it's needed maintenance and end up having preventable problems because of it. I used one for over 20 years on my undrilled 60g cube tank, along with a dual biowheel HOB filter. Although both will work, they are a lot of trouble (especially the canister). If there is no other option, a canister can be useful for carbon, be there are several options better suited to our use. Save the canister for use on Big Cleanup Day when you need to clear the water of suspended debris. Just stuff it full of pillow stuffing, run it for a day or two to clear things up, then take it off, toss the floss, and store it for later use.

A sump is a container (often another, smaller tank) that has a number of benefits that a canister filter just can't provide. First, it is an instant increase in volume. Increased volume = increased stability of overall water parameters. Stability is the keystone of a successful marine aquarium. It is also a convenient place to put all the equipment that would otherwise take up space in the main tank - your heaters, protein skimmer, return pump, reactors for carbon and GFO, leftover live rock (increased biological filtration capacity) etc.

Having had very successful systems using both methods, and can say with no reservations that having a drilled tank with overflow to a sump is, by a wide margin, the better option.

hth
 
Most of my customers are total newbies...first time tanks.....there is no better way to start a new tank...painless and successful when using real live rock and sand. What is important is folks know there is an alternative to buying imported rock which has to be cured for weeks before use. Unfortunately what you see in your stores and online is mostly imported rock.........there is a successful alternative is the message here.

If I could supply more rock to the industry you would read more about real live rock and sand, and hear it from people who have actually held and used my rock.

Using real live rock and sand makes it very easy for new reefers to be successful right out of the gate.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com



OrQidz said:
If there is one absolute in reef keeping, it is that there is no absolute one right answer!

There are always different ways of doing things so you will always get more than one answer. In general, dead rock will become live so you can have base rock and live rock. I would not spend the extra money on "live" sand. You do need aragonite sand and not play sand type stuff though.

RO water is pretty consistently recommended for good reason. Lots of things in tap water including nutrients that will give you algae issues.

A sump is great but you can also get by with good filtration, powerheads, skimmer etc.

no offense to Richard at TBS at all, but I'm a little uncomfortable seeing a vendor offering their product to a newbie in the newbie forum....I actually think TBS is great and you would get great rock but this is not a sales forum. Just IMHO.

Anyway, have fun setting up, it's a fun project!!
Click to expand...
 
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