Live rock, still a dogma?

Belgian Anthias

New member
One of the tried and true methods of providing biological filtration is by the use of "live rock." This method has been suggested by virtually every author who has written about the aquarium hobby for the last 15 years. The advice to use live rock as a biological filter has been accepted for so long that it has become dogma. I think it is always useful to question dogma. It is easy, and comfortable, to be dogmatic, but progress comes only with periodic and critical re-evaluation of dearly-held ideas and practices. With this thought in mind, I believe it is time to critically re-examine the uncriticized use of live rock in reef aquarium systems. ( Shimek 2004/05)

The above was written by Roland L. Shimek. Ph.D. in 2004 in his article ; Live rock as a biological filter, Hit or Myth? http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.php

14 years later and still it is not more as a believe. Authors take it over referencing to other authors . The capacity of "live" rock to reduce ammonia and nitrate in the aquarium system became a dogma? ( we know nitrate reduction may take place in stone as it happens in any biofilm installed in the system)
The questions asked by Shimek are still not answered with scientific backed up research and proof:
"How, exactly, do bacteria growing inside of rocks 'filter' aquarium water?" Or, even better, "How, exactly, does water get into and out of live rock?" ( Shimek 2004/05)

The bio-filter was banned the same way. It is believed that it is responsible for increasing the nitrate level and this is taken over by virtually every author who has written about the aquarium hobby for the last 15 years. As the function of a biological filter is reducing ammonia and for to sustain the increasing bio-load of the system it is logic that nitrate is produced and reduced in the filter. ( as live rock when it does what it should do) But is it the biological filter which is responsible for an increasing nitrate level? Or is it the manager of the system?
Isn't the biological filter just an extension or the completion of the whole biological system which is a life supporting aquarium system, a function assumed to be carried out by "live" rock?

A dogma is something that exists only because it is believed it exists. It can not be found, not touched, not seen, it is because it is believed it is.

It is believed that live rock is needed in a reef aquarium and that it is responsible for and able to support and maintain the carrying capacity of the aquarium system. In combination with a skimmer. This believe is what modern reefkeeping is based on.
Since the banning of bio-filters live rock has become booming business and all the benefits are gladly used by lobbyists supporting this business. Articles are written, threats are created but most of them do not contain a reference of proper research to sustain what is written. To support this booming business one would suspect that a lot of research has been done to prove the point of the lobbyists. Well, I am not able to find much. Of coarse, they have no reason to proof there point as long the majority of starters are made believers.
I am well aware that live rock is not able to replace a simple bio-filter but I need references of proper research. There are thousands of research papers and books published concerning biological filters. Till now I could not find one publication that can tell me or will give me an estimation of the ammonia reduction and or nitrate reduction capacity of so called "live rock" used in an aquarium.
It is simply tested by putting some drops of ammonia chloride(5%) into a bucket of seawater. It is not that difficult. If I would publish my results here most of you would not believe it,

In his article , Shimek ( 2004/05) promises to do some more research, together with Eric Borneman, but I can not find the publications of the results.
As I am writing an article concerning "live" rock, all help to find approved references about the biological filter capacity of "live" rock is welcome.
 
IMO...Not a dogma.. never was a dogma..
Principals behind it are fairly easily understood and proven..
 
It is very true that you can grow coral without live rock.
Many of the old theories include not just coral. The intent is to grow fish and other inhabitants as a ecosystem to try to imitate the largest ecosystem in our world.
Though not scientifically proven, but I can attest to the reason you do not want to use things such as a man made biological filter to grow coral with other inhabitants. The reason is the bacteria is so good at converting the ammonia to nitrate that it takes away from other inhabitant to natural work. This process starves oxygen. I have seen reef aquariums that had man made biological filters and live rock together struggle. Though so crude but an example is if you have a tank like this the ORP is low. Remove the man made biological filter and the ORP goes up and the corals improve.
If you want to just grow coral man made filtration can be ok.
 
Bio

Bio

It is very true that you can grow coral without live rock.
Many of the old theories include not just coral. The intent is to grow fish and other inhabitants as a ecosystem to try to imitate the largest ecosystem in our world.
Though not scientifically proven, but I can attest to the reason you do not want to use things such as a man made biological filter to grow coral with other inhabitants. The reason is the bacteria is so good at converting the ammonia to nitrate that it takes away from other inhabitant to natural work. This process starves oxygen. I have seen reef aquariums that had man made biological filters and live rock together struggle. Though so crude but an example is if you have a tank like this the ORP is low. Remove the man made biological filter and the ORP goes up and the corals improve.
If you want to just grow coral man made filtration can be ok.

Management!

The capacity to reduce ammonia and nitrate of a man made bio can easily be controlled as is the oxygen supply. The capacity can easily be adjusted to an increasing or changing bio-load. And when used in a refuge or a reactor a biofilter will take away what is present in the refuge or reactor and can not remove what the manager does not want to be removed from the system. A bio filter gives the possibility to manage the nitrogen household from the system . When a bio-filter removes most ammonia leaving not enough for the other habitants who need it, than this is caused due to bad management, not by the bio-filter.

.
 
IMO...Not a dogma.. never was a dogma..
Principals behind it are fairly easily understood and proven..

References?

Understood or believed?

I understand how nitrification and denitrification works and can be managed.
This makes that it is difficult to understand why "live"rock is believed to be indispensable.

Can you answer the two questions asked by Shimek +- 30 years ago and give proof, some references, of what is proven?
 
Easy. I am not saying you need live rock to grow coral. I'm just giving you the reason why people recommended it in the old days.

Let me quote my first statement

"It is very true that you can grow coral without live rock."
 
Something is dogmatic if it is claimed and accepted without evidence .... in other words, the inclination to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true. I would not personally view the claim of live rock as bio-filter to be dogmatic unless one were to suggest that it is the only way to establish a bio-filter. Any reef-safe structure with adequate surface area will host the bacterial colonies necessary to convert wastes through to nitrate ... and perhaps even to nitrogen gas.

I'd personally view the value of live rock more as a way to 'seed' populations of micro fauna and flora; this is possible in tanks started with dry rock, though it takes longer and biodiversity is likely to be more limited. By the time a tank gets to be of age, of course, those difference are likely to be moot. Most of my live rock was bought 25 years ago, so any of the initial bio-diversity has long disappeared. My own preference is to start a reef tank with live rock (to the degree that you can even get it anymore), but I am not dogmatic to the point where I would suggest it is the only way to do it :lol:.
 
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Information!

Information!

I am looking for information about the ammonia and nitrate reduction capacity of "live" and other rock used in aquaria, Information which can be used as a reference and may or may not back up my personal research results.
Tests made to compare "life rock" and base rock? Between "live rock" and GARF- or other DIY rock? Between "live rock' and factory made rock from plastic, epoxy,...? Between "live rock" and no rock at all?
 
References?

Understood or believed?

I understand how nitrification and denitrification works and can be managed.
This makes that it is difficult to understand why "live"rock is believed to be indispensable.

Can you answer the two questions asked by Shimek +- 30 years ago and give proof, some references, of what is proven?

It's clear that you are enthusiastic about proving this point. But I think my question would be...what benefit is there to NOT using live rock? Sure, maybe live rock might not be the only option, but isn't it still kind of the best option? You take a piece of rock, and put it in saltwater, wait 3 weeks, and you're done.

If I wanted to do the same function but with man-made equipment, or man-made material, wouldn't I be paying more for the same function? Not to mention the fact that manufacture of said products is nowhere near as "green" as put a literal rock in a tank.

I'm just failing to see where proving live rock as "indispensable" is beneficial to the hobby as a whole. If it made things cheaper/easier/more bio-friendly, I'd understand. But I just don't think that's the case.
 
Something is dogmatic if it is claimed and accepted without evidence .... in other words, the inclination to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true. I would not personally view the claim of live rock as bio-filter to be dogmatic unless one were to suggest that it is the only way to establish a bio-filter. Any reef-safe structure with adequate surface area will host the bacterial colonies necessary to convert wastes through to nitrate ... and perhaps even to nitrogen gas.

I'd personally view the value of live rock more as a way to 'seed' populations of micro fauna and flora; this is possible in tanks started with dry rock, though it takes longer and biodiversity is likely to be more limited. By the time a tank gets to be of age, of course, those difference are likely to be moot. Most of my live rock was bought 25 years ago, so any of the initial bio-diversity has long disappeared. My own preference is to start a reef tank with live rock (to the degree that you can even get it anymore), but I am not dogmatic to the point where I would suggest it is the only way to do it :lol:.



Does one need expensive"live" rock to seed the aquarium?

If one wants original diversity ask to collect some algae and grass from an algae and or sea grass field with some bottom sand till +- 15cm deep, Some scrapings from real live rock ( it will regrow fast). Everything putted in a bag below the surface. A total of +- 100 grams is more than enough. Let it be posted to you express delivery 24h. No cites!! And a lot cheaper!!
On vacation at sea? Bring some of this home!! Don't forget to declare as this is alive!. No cites!
 
I am looking for information about the ammonia and nitrate reduction capacity of "live" and other rock used in aquaria.

If you are going to take a 'scientific' approach, lets be factually correct. While the conversion of nitrate back into nitrogen gas is indeed a reduction process, the conversion of ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate is not - it is an oxidation process.
 
It's clear that you are enthusiastic about proving this point. But I think my question would be...what benefit is there to NOT using live rock? Sure, maybe live rock might not be the only option, but isn't it still kind of the best option? You take a piece of rock, and put it in saltwater, wait 3 weeks, and you're done.

If I wanted to do the same function but with man-made equipment, or man-made material, wouldn't I be paying more for the same function? Not to mention the fact that manufacture of said products is nowhere near as "green" as put a literal rock in a tank.

I'm just failing to see where proving live rock as "indispensable" is beneficial to the hobby as a whole. If it made things cheaper/easier/more bio-friendly, I'd understand. But I just don't think that's the case.

What would the functions which are the same? aqua shaping? Base rock is a lot less expensive. After a few moths of use one can not see any difference!

The bio-load of "live rock" systems is very low, The rock is very expensive and did certainly not made a reef system more easy to manage. as the filtration rate is not manageable at all. When one looks at it from the other side, it is easier to manage!!


I am not against using real live rock, contrary as I am fan of a mixed reef looking natural including the aqua-shaping, bio load and diversity. If I would live on the seashore I would certainly have a lot of real live rock in a refuge.
But this has nothing to do with its capacity as a bio-filter.

To transport stones from one side of the world to the other side one should have a good reason.! Transporting 100 grams of diversity is a lot cheaper, express delivery!?

I am just looking for some proof that "live rock" is able to do what most users believe.it does After +- 30 years one would expect some research is done about the denitrification capacity of such rock. Till now I can not find a reference.
 
scientific approach!

scientific approach!

If you are going to take a 'scientific' approach, lets be factually correct. While the conversion of nitrate back into nitrogen gas is indeed a reduction process, the conversion of ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate is not - it is an oxidation process.

I know what you mean!

And yes, a scientific approach is welcome. It would be nice to find some scientific papers concerning the issue. As I have no free access to scientific data bases I could use some help here.
 
What would the functions which are the same? aqua shaping? Base rock is a lot less expensive. After a few moths of use one can not see any difference!

The bio-load of "live rock" systems is very low, The rock is very expensive and did certainly not made a reef system more easy to manage. as the filtration rate is not manageable at all. When one looks at it from the other side, it is easier to manage!!


I am not against using real live rock, contrary as I am fan of a mixed reef looking natural including the aqua-shaping, bio load and diversity. If I would live on the seashore I would certainly have a lot of real live rock in a refuge.
But this has nothing to do with its capacity as a bio-filter.

To transport stones from one side of the world to the other side one should have a good reason.! Transporting 100 grams of diversity is a lot cheaper, express delivery!?

I am just looking for some proof that "live rock" is able to do what most users believe.it does After +- 30 years one would expect some research is done about the denitrification capacity of such rock. Till now I can not find a reference.

I don't think anyone here would debate what you're saying. Live rock is just rock that has bacteria on it that convert nitrogen, regardless of where the rock came from. I think the real debate here is whether or not you want matured rock from the ocean. Any porous rock can be live rock, but it's the added benefit of the ocean life that people are purchasing. I think this is debating two different things.
 
References

References

This threat is started to find people how can help me to find published research concerning the rocks used in an aquarium with the function of a biofilter.
This treat is not started to start a discussion concerning the use of live rock. I was carried away here!
If someone has any info about research concerning the issue , it is welcome!
 
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