Live rock versus Submerged Bioballs in a reef

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8759531#post8759531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flfirefighter13
Would seeding refugium with some LR add these small creatures, Even if it took a while I imagine it should work out in the long term.
It can. Note that you're back to utilizing LR. :)
Personally, I've seen nothing so far that compares to the benefits of using good quality live rock in a reef aquarium. That doesn't mean that no alternatives exist.
Many others concur- including some very notable reefkeepers and authors which will go as far as to call liverock "the backbone of your reef aquarium".
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8758434#post8758434 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stoney Mahony
I am well aware of the biological processes and requirements of anaerobic/ denitrifying/ nitrifying bacteria and live rock is not the best solution the world has to offer.
then what is?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8759017#post8759017 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flfirefighter13
New question: What is it about LR that makes it so much better in a sump.
The big advantage that immediately comes to mind is sheer volume: you can fit a LOT of LR in a big sump, but as previously mentioned you'll need to monitor the detritus that it sheds.
IMG_1729320FO.jpg

This is a pic of a 300 gallon FO that had chronic nitrate problems.
I solved the problem by removing all the bioballs from the wet/dry "nitrate factory". I then installed a DSB in the sump and introduced LR into the system. I also introduced amphipods, worms and other critters from my reef aquarium.
 
Last edited:
IMG_1042maybe90090999.jpg

Here's a pic of my 10 year old reef aquarium taken just before it was dismantled. The key to biological filtration in this system was a massive amount of LR cemented onto and over cinder blocks- another alternative you might want to consider.
 
Gary,
The cinder Brick is a great idea to. And those are both amazeing tanks. Like I said Im not against LR use, quite the contrary actually I have well over 300lbs in various tanks in my house, I just prefer a tank that is not aquascaped like a box of rocks. to get around this I started thinking I would build a big sump and put the rock in there, which lead to why spend the money on rock thats out of site if we can use another substance thats reef safe and posiible adds more surface area.

Recap of what im thinking of trying in the near future: Large sump with DSB and refugium. Inside refugium will be a large amount of "alternative substance" such as filter media or cement or something readily available that provides good surface area. Seed this with LR and gunk from an established tank. Keeping flow high enough and varied enough to keep detritous away. Maybe the DSB can have Macroalgae on top and a medium flow and the "alternative substance" area can have high flow.

Alternative substance ideas,
Bioballs, No good, not enough surface area and no anaerobic zone

Ceramic filter media, possible I plan on doing some more research and checking price.

Cement bricks, cheap easy and should work well, not sure if all are reef safe, more research needed

DIY aragocrete rocks, great idea, long cure time is the main down point I see. I could wait it out but I know there are a lot of people that wouldnt want to wait for it to "cure" as from some threads I have read it could take quite a long time.

Any more ideas?
 
I have been keeping reefs close to 30 years and I can honestly say that I have never seen anything work the wonders of true live rock. It may be out there but I have not seen or heard of it.

Great pictures by the way.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8759632#post8759632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak


then what is?

Thats what we are here to discuss and maybe find out. I didn't say I had all the answers, I said there is always a better way.

Firefighter- I love the idea of ground ceramic fake rock. You wouldnt even need to seed the sump if you have existing LR in your display. You could even layer your rock with the less porous almost solid material as the core and use different grades with different porosities as you move out. :) Sounds like your gonna have a ton of water in your house with all those tanks!
 
nope, not a ton of water anymore, Im condensing into 3 systems. I 125 reef with a 30g show fuge to house the mantis, 1 aquapod for my wife to play with, and one double decker setup, 125 on top with carnivores and 125 below as sump on the right for skimmer and return with the left 4' visible and inhabited by critters that dont get along well with the carnivores. Planning a large system when I build a house, hence the reason I want to experiment and figure out what to use in the sump that will be in the garage...... feel free to come help out anytime, im just up the road from orlando:)
 
Aragacrete live rock is actually easy to make, and if put into an establshed system, it doesnt take long to "cure", since its not already inhabited with life to die off in our systems, its just a matter of having it become biologically available to the life to live in, cutting they "curing" process in half and without the ammonia spike of adding uncured live rock. Actually, any material used, no matter how pourous it is, will in fact be populated with nitrifying bacteria on its available surface area rather quickly if placed under "aged" saltwater. The reason that live rock does the job that it does, isn't because of its surface area at all, it's simply the fact that the water osmoses completely through the rock itself, and within semi-solid rock, there can be very little air, creating a perfect environment for denitrification. This also can mean that sometimes the bigger the piece of rock, the better nitrification abilities of the rock. The arguement is that i've heard so far is that live rock is no doubt good, but is there anything better? Well, I believe that there is not. And this is why...
Live rock does what it does simply because it is what it is, like Popeye. Most live rock is made from almost pure calcium deposits left by thousands of years of corals, plants, and animals that have left their bones on the reef, only to petrify, and become rock so inhabited with life (including bacteria) that it actually acts as the filtration system for the entire ocean, erosion of these materials creates the sand, which also adds its benifits the entire ocean. Can there be a more perfect filtration system that what nature has created itself? No. Simply No. It took Billions of years for that system to be perfected and to become what it is now. We would only be fooling ourselves to think that we can overdo that. The question is, How can we harness the benifits of it without harming the ocean in the process? The answer to that is simply to use the system itself. Creating your own live rock, the natural way, (by putting it into the ocean and waiting) can do no harm, if anything, creating artificial reefs of concrete and other materials helps the ocean in general simply by adding to the systems available surface area for nitrifying bacteria, not to mention creating homes for thousands of animals. The oceans diversity itself decides what will live there, and what won't.
Now, I do agree that there is a sustainable harvest of live rock from the ocean, so I dont have an arguement against collecting it, as long as we replace what we take, as we take it, and allow some time for nature to catch up with us every once in a while.
Thats all I got on that. sorry so long winded.
 
great post, Claeth.

flfirefighter- if you have liverock for biological filtration in your display aquarium you might want to simply consider lighting your refugium and growing macroalgae for nutrient export (search algae scrubber). Another option would be to keep the refugium dark and make it a cryptic zone filter using sponges (search up Tyree cryptic zone). Aiptasia can be employed as a type of scrubber in a refugium/sump.

Your LFS might give you credit for those bioballs.
 
Thanks Claeth!

Gary, Trying to aquascape with minimal rockwork in the tank im building now, I will research the cryptic zone idea. Also no credit is needed, I only own one single bioball, being used as a intake screen in a nano:)
 
You have to decide what your goal is here. Are you trying to foster the growth of water polishing benthic invertebrates, or are you trying to encourage denitrifying bacteria? There is no jack of all trades media, but you can have an assembly-line process that specializes in each respective function (assimilation, dissimilation & export).

Many people have success setting up different zones for this purpose. Some of the biological solutions for waste reduction and export are bivalves, worms, sponges, tunicates, zooplankton, macro algae, mangrove trees, DSB variations, live rock, and wet/dry filtration. The art is in balancing them without residual.

That ceramic block media is just a ceramic version of a sponge. Many people have had success with sponge denitrators. They are prone to detritus build-up and clogging, but so is every other method. Denitrifying bacteria populate detritus trapped in your media, not on the media site itself, so some detrital buildup is necessary. Sand will hold more detritus and support bacterial film. If you want denitrifying bacteria, surface area is the way to go, and you can't beat fine sand for that.

Bioballs trap air due to the void space and structure. Live rock will hold some air, but the small pore size and shape aren't conducive to trapping much.

My preferred materials are eggcrate for benthic invertebrate culture, and aragonite for denitrifying bacteria (DSB).
 
You have to decide what your goal is here. Are you trying to foster the growth of water polishing benthic invertebrates, or are you trying to encourage denitrifying bacteria? There is no jack of all trades media, but you can have an assembly-line process that specializes in each respective function (assimilation, dissimilation & export).

Many people have success setting up different zones for this purpose. Some of the biological solutions for waste reduction and export are bivalves, worms, sponges, tunicates, zooplankton, macro algae, mangrove trees, DSB variations, live rock, and wet/dry filtration. The art is in balancing them without residual.

That ceramic block media is just a ceramic version of a sponge. Many people have had success with sponge denitrators. They are prone to detritus build-up and clogging, but so is every other method. Denitrifying bacteria populate detritus trapped in your media, not on the media site itself, so some detrital buildup is necessary. Sand will hold more detritus and support bacterial film. If you want denitrifying bacteria, surface area is the way to go, and you can't beat fine sand for that.

Bioballs trap air due to the void space and structure. Live rock will hold some air, but the small pore size and shape aren't conducive to trapping much.

My preferred materials are eggcrate for benthic invertebrate culture, and aragonite for denitrifying bacteria (DSB).

If you haven't found it yet, here's Steve Tyrees site. http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm

You'll find a similar discusion here. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=969713
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8805124#post8805124 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCURRY@WESKETCH
Why not use lava rock or tufa rock? It's light weight very porus and cheap.

Both of these can have harmful chemicals contained within them that leach into the aquarium and cause problems.

I am curious why more people dont simply install a trickle filter over a refugium and bypass the liverock. The trickle filter will easily handle ammonia and nitrite and with the increase in nitrate the macro algae should grow very fast. Maybe a small CO2 system (or the eflux from a CA reactor) that dripped into the refugium would increase the growth even more. The only limiting factor that I can think of would be phosphate however with frequent feedings that wouldn't be a problem.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8819076#post8819076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChinChek787
Both of these can have harmful chemicals contained within them that leach into the aquarium and cause problems.

I am curious why more people dont simply install a trickle filter over a refugium and bypass the liverock. The trickle filter will easily handle ammonia and nitrite and with the increase in nitrate the macro algae should grow very fast. Maybe a small CO2 system (or the eflux from a CA reactor) that dripped into the refugium would increase the growth even more. The only limiting factor that I can think of would be phosphate however with frequent feedings that wouldn't be a problem.

Ammonia and nitrite build-up aren't an issue with an established aquarium. Any efforts to remove or reduce them, other than active bacteria on the display substrate and rock, is redundant.

Co2 dosing would cause huge nuisance algae problems. Macro algae has no deficit of nutrients in reef aquariums, so there's no need to actively feed.

The effluent of a well designed calcium reactor should have little or no carbonic acid residual. If you increase the Co2 addition rate, or the water throughput, you could direct it to a DSB where denitrifying pseudomona bacteria could utilize it for carbon fixing.

I would only use this practice as a method of removing, existing, residual carbonic acid effluent, and not as a concentrated effort to feed anaerobic bacteria. The benefits as such are clear, and the risk of overdosing Co2 is as well.
 
good reading ,how about small amount of l.r for the main tank, for filter and display + dsb,
then in the sump smaller dsb top with alfa grog/lave rock,and poss some cheato light 24/7 or reverse light to the main tank light
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8933808#post8933808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pipatic
good reading ,how about small amount of l.r for the main tank, for filter and display + dsb,
then in the sump smaller dsb top with alfa grog/lave rock,and poss some cheato light 24/7 or reverse light to the main tank light

I'm not familiar with "alfa grog/lave rock"? Any kind of rock is going to provide only marginal surface area for benthic invertebrates like sponges, tunicates and tube worms. Plastic eggcrate grid has a structure that allows for 360 degree living quarters. It allows water to pass through freely, so food (nitrate, phosphate, silicates, heavy metals), can be delivered to the benthic denizens. Live rock will trap detritus and cause poor flow.

The internal anaerobic zone of rock is inferior to that of sand. The combination of a deep sand bed for bacterial colonization, and eggcrate as a lattice to support micro & macro invertebrates, gives you the best of both worlds.

Macro algae should be on a 16 hour photoperiod so photosynthesis can take place. A 24/7 photoperiod will not allow for night respiration (unless it's like my 24/7 work schedule...24 days a month, seven hours a day).

A constant photoperiod will not allow algae to grow, reducing it to a mere site for bacteria. Plastic mesh will give you the same results, and you won't need a light for it.

A reverse photoperiod is the way to go.
 
Back
Top