Not able to enter the fish? You are providing body armor?
Living With Ich... any advice?
- Thread starter jamesbaur13
- Start date
Not able to enter the fish? You are providing body armor?
Ya know, I think the reason some people fail to understand Ich is because they make it too complicated. Like it's this mysterious thing you can beat with JuJu juice and some hocus pocus. It's actually very simple to understand, it's just a parasite. Parasites are living things (just like us) that need food to continue to live and reproduce. Again, just like us. If I put any one of you in an empty room with nothing else, you're eventually going to starve to death. Similarly, if Ich is in a tank without food (fish to feed on) it's going to starve to death as well. But if there's just one small fish in the tank, undoubtedly at least some of the Ich parasites will scrounge enough off that fish to live, reproduce and continue their life cycle. And once you add even more fish, the buffet starts back up again!
Copper works because it's poison that (most) fish can tolerate for a month or so, while parasites simply cannot. Hypo works because (most) fish can tolerate the lower salinity for a month or so, while parasites simply cannot.
Copper works because it's poison that (most) fish can tolerate for a month or so, while parasites simply cannot. Hypo works because (most) fish can tolerate the lower salinity for a month or so, while parasites simply cannot.
Gill_bucket
New member
Are you actually trying to defend your obviously false statement?
Do not make this personal. Read the sticky on ich in this forum. I stand by what I said.
Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich)
So what about Marine Ich (cyrptocaryon irritans)?
The life cycle of this parasite is interesting and is important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again. What this means is that when your tank is infected, you can actually see symptoms during a very small part of the life cycle, and it why your tank is infected even though your fish are resistant. It will also explain why symptoms come and go.
Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.
By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.
So what about Marine Ich (cyrptocaryon irritans)?
The life cycle of this parasite is interesting and is important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again. What this means is that when your tank is infected, you can actually see symptoms during a very small part of the life cycle, and it why your tank is infected even though your fish are resistant. It will also explain why symptoms come and go.
Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.
By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.
Gill_bucket
New member
Wow, did you just admit that some fish can be more resistant to Ick than others? Who are you and what did you do with Mr. Tuskfish?
Treatments which work and Myths and Truths about Marine Ich
Treatments which work:
1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. It is difficult to control pH and water quality during treatment, however this is the least stressful treatment for the fish.
2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. This can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress.
3.. Transfer method – The fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.
4. These are the ONLY 3 known cures that work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite, but only in special conditions that are not good for the fish. Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.
Observations, Claims, and Common Myths:
1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. This is true. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.
2. Cryptocaryon irritans goes away on its own. This is definitely NOT true. While Cryptocaryon irritans is only visible at one stage of its life cycle if it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist. Reread the life cycle described above.
3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. This is not true; we all wish it was. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.
4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist.
5. The fish lived through the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. This can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.
6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn’t ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.
7. Cryptocaryon irritans can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. This is true.
8. Aquariums always have Cryptocaryon irritans. This is untrue. Cryptocaryon irritans can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish, rock, sand, sponges, and filter medium and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium.
9. Fish always have Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. In the wild fish often show up to a 30% infection rate (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom' since In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.
10. A fish can't be made to be totally rid of Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any Cryptocaryon irritans infection.
11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!
12. A new cure has been discovered. Very unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 tried and true methods then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!
13. If the Cryptocaryon irritans can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying Cryptocaryon irritans parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist. When this happens, treatment is appropriate with one of the three proven treatments.
14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (we don't know why) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.
15. UV and/or Ozone kills Cryptocaryon irritans. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Since the entire water volume does not pass through the unit, not all ich parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of Cryptocaryon irritans. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for Cryptocaryon irritans. When water is shared by multiple tanks, usage of UV can make spreading this parasite from tank to tank significantly less likely.
16. All spots are Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and “myth-information” in the hobby is assuming that a spot is Cryptocaryon irritans when it may be another parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Cryptocaryon irritans. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured Cryptocaryon irritans, when the fish didn't have Cryptocaryon irritans to start with.
17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of Cryptocaryon irritans. Have you been reading the above? First, 2 weeks is not long enough. Secondly most LFS share water among their fish system tanks so if any new arrivals happened, the clock is effectively reset back to zero.
The truth is out there. . .Trust no one except yourself.
Treatments which work:
1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. It is difficult to control pH and water quality during treatment, however this is the least stressful treatment for the fish.
2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. This can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress.
3.. Transfer method – The fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.
4. These are the ONLY 3 known cures that work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite, but only in special conditions that are not good for the fish. Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.
Observations, Claims, and Common Myths:
1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. This is true. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.
2. Cryptocaryon irritans goes away on its own. This is definitely NOT true. While Cryptocaryon irritans is only visible at one stage of its life cycle if it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist. Reread the life cycle described above.
3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. This is not true; we all wish it was. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.
4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist.
5. The fish lived through the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. This can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.
6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn’t ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.
7. Cryptocaryon irritans can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. This is true.
8. Aquariums always have Cryptocaryon irritans. This is untrue. Cryptocaryon irritans can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish, rock, sand, sponges, and filter medium and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium.
9. Fish always have Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. In the wild fish often show up to a 30% infection rate (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom' since In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.
10. A fish can't be made to be totally rid of Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any Cryptocaryon irritans infection.
11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!
12. A new cure has been discovered. Very unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 tried and true methods then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!
13. If the Cryptocaryon irritans can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying Cryptocaryon irritans parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist. When this happens, treatment is appropriate with one of the three proven treatments.
14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (we don't know why) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.
15. UV and/or Ozone kills Cryptocaryon irritans. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Since the entire water volume does not pass through the unit, not all ich parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of Cryptocaryon irritans. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for Cryptocaryon irritans. When water is shared by multiple tanks, usage of UV can make spreading this parasite from tank to tank significantly less likely.
16. All spots are Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and “myth-information” in the hobby is assuming that a spot is Cryptocaryon irritans when it may be another parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Cryptocaryon irritans. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured Cryptocaryon irritans, when the fish didn't have Cryptocaryon irritans to start with.
17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of Cryptocaryon irritans. Have you been reading the above? First, 2 weeks is not long enough. Secondly most LFS share water among their fish system tanks so if any new arrivals happened, the clock is effectively reset back to zero.
The truth is out there. . .Trust no one except yourself.
About 10% of fish seem to have selective resistance to some strains of parasites. Research has shown that this resistance can diminish over about six months.
jcw
Active member
Snorvich has explained many times what ich is and how it reproduces and why he believes you should treat.
You have not explained however why the ich would not "enter" a new fish particularly in the close confines of an aquarium where each tomont cyst could reproduce into hundreds of tomite parasites.
I am open to opinions in this matter and would like to hear your reasons and make my decision.
I quarantine fish but do not treat. With my final additions to my 125g, the next day, I noticed 4-5 VERY fine spots on my mimic tang.
At this point I am unwilling to go through quarantining 15 fish. And like MANY others have decided to ride it out and see.
Having treated the tank once for ich removing 5 fish earlier this year, there is simply NO WAY I'm doing it again.
Gill_bucket
New member
I took this from the sticky YOU posted
" 4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn't really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist."
How could this be? How could there be a cycle of blooms when you clearly stated "Ick ALWAYS increases in density". Obviously ick MUST decrease in density otherwise how could people see the presence of ick, then find it unnoticeable and then see a "bloom" upon the introduction of a stressor.
Gill_bucket
New member
"11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!"
A quickly setup QT can be a death sentence as well as stressful. If you have a large QT setup and ready then you will get nothing but praise from me, however if you are suggesting to others that they MUST quickly setup a QT then I fear you will lead a lot of people to unnecessarily kill their fish. I would agree with this type of panic if someone had velvet or if it was fresh water ich, but marine ick is not a death sentence. If it was as simple as some here state then why would there be any controversy?
A quickly setup QT can be a death sentence as well as stressful. If you have a large QT setup and ready then you will get nothing but praise from me, however if you are suggesting to others that they MUST quickly setup a QT then I fear you will lead a lot of people to unnecessarily kill their fish. I would agree with this type of panic if someone had velvet or if it was fresh water ich, but marine ick is not a death sentence. If it was as simple as some here state then why would there be any controversy?
Gill_bucket
New member
You should change the reef central sticky then: "6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn't ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills."
At this point you are not bringing any information to the table. And it would seem that all you want to be is argumentative and confrontational. . If that is all you can bring to the table, please go away. And, by the way you might increase your reading comprehension skills.
Gill_bucket
New member
You really can't admit when your wrong can you?
Blue hippo tang
Blue hippo tang
My hippo tang has white spots for about 3 weeks. I'm setting up my qt now. My question is why don't my other fish have it? My fish list:
Firefish
3 chromis
Christmas wrasse
Sailfin Tang
Potter's angel
My blue tang
Orange spotted rabbit fish
I'm having trouble catching my blue tang that is why I haven't put him in yet. I'm going to keep the blue tang out for 9 weeks.
Blue hippo tang
My hippo tang has white spots for about 3 weeks. I'm setting up my qt now. My question is why don't my other fish have it? My fish list:
Firefish
3 chromis
Christmas wrasse
Sailfin Tang
Potter's angel
My blue tang
Orange spotted rabbit fish
I'm having trouble catching my blue tang that is why I haven't put him in yet. I'm going to keep the blue tang out for 9 weeks.
Actually, I reviewed your posting history. As you admittedly do not quarantine, you have no credibility with me or those who are truly knowledgeable in the field.
Gill_bucket
New member
First you speak in absolutes and then you speak for others; aren't you the enlightened one. :lolspin:
Gill_bucket
New member
I currently have Ick in my 125, and it has been there for over two years. Currently only the blue tang shows signs of it (2 or 3 spots). I keep my fish well fed and unstressed other than that I do nothing, I do feed garlic but in no way do I think it is a miracle cure. When I recently added a new fish (flame angle) I had another bloom by that I mean 20 or so spots on the blue tang and 3 or 4 spots on other fish which usually show no sign of it. I didn't panic and try to throw together a QT, instead I waited it out lost no fish and now it is once again under control.
I did loose three fish about a year ago to the ick but I truly believe that a poorly executed QT could have wiped out ALL of my fish. I recognize that having multiple QTs set up and running at all times would be far better then what I have, however for many this is unpracticle so instead people go out and get a ten gallon tank mix some fresh salt water up and kill their fish. Then Mr. Tuskfish tells them it was the Ick in the gills of an otherwise healthy fish which caused them to die overnight. I believe that the only reliable way to rid a tank of ick is to go fallow, however I do not believe that ick is a death sentence or even has to be an irritant, my fish never scratch on the rocks or breath heavily.
I also find it odd that the recommendation of QT is not fully disclosed. To truly keep ick out of ones tank you must QT all new comers, this includes snails and corals, this would require an entire reef ready QT for frags and hermit crabs ext. IMO most people can not nor will they do this, so telling them they MUST QT all their fish because they see a spot or two only puts their fish at risk with no long term benefit.
My real concern is not that people recommend QT, because I believe it is the appropriate course of action if done properly. I am concerned about the miss information presented in order to bully people into taking your point of view, this leads to an undo haste and results in an improper QT. People should be presented with the facts and the real risks on BOTH sides so that they can make an informed decision.
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