Living With Ich... any advice?

[Actnatural]

So you are saying no one can prove it either way so it automatically goes in your favor? makes sense...can't argue with that

Just poked around for about 20 mins and never really found anything but mixed results. Maybe I didn't poke long enough.

If you do come across any information with a backbone I'd love to read it send me a private message anytime.

 

[FrEsHaZzBuRu]

Wrasses create a web of mucous when they sleep . Sometimes they bury in the sand . You may be seeing debris. A single spot with no other symptoms probably isn't ich.

Ok thanks! I'm always over paranoid about what I see in my tank as I'm still a newbie. What would be some symptoms? I read about breathing, but I'm unfamiliar with what normal breathing is supposed to look like

So wrasses don't usually have ich?

Here are my current fish inhabitants in a 29G standard in order of introduction:

2 spot goby
pair of false clowns
threadfin cardinal
sixline wrasse

Also, if I do want to keep the tank fallow for piece of mind, would the goby have to come out too? Or are the parasites still able to attach to a goby?

Sorry to highjack this thread, but there are lots of good answers/information :beer:

 

[Sk8r]

Symptoms: flared gills, hard breathing, tissue of gills exiting gill-cover; salt-like dots or white pimples on skin or fins; scratching (swimming flat against sand or rock, usual in quick dive). If you note erosion of the fin, that's fin-rot, a bacterial disease; if dots on the fin, it's ich. If another fish in the store has ich, it's a good bet the parasite has transferred about on nets, no matter what tank it's showing up in. Ich is a parasite that spreads like fleas; but it can be lethal fast, particularly if it gets into a tank with poor water quality, low alkalinity, etc.

Basically, blennies, gobies, dragonets, wrasses---fish that spend their time in very close contact with the sandbed (as opposed to tangs, angels, rabbits, damsels) tend to have thick slime coats that protect them against this parasite, but sometimes that slime coat thins or gets damaged---bad water chemistry, or a simple scrape on a rock. Then the parasite has a chance to get through; or it gets to the gills, which are less well defended.

People can quote statistics and probability---but when it's your tank, your fish, and the problems of freeing a tank of an infestation, I really recommend believing anything is vulnerable. I have one exception: dragonets. Their slime coat is so extreme they feel like a handful of Jell-o, they ALMOST never get it if the water quality is good (the params are in my sig line) and they die if they can't get the pods a tank supports. Outside of mandys, best to bring all fish out for treatment and leave the tank fallow 8-12 weeks. Will a mandy enable the ich to continue?---not likely. Small risk. But not at all likely. You always do play the odds, but the deal is to adjust them in your tank's favor as much as you can, and try to avoid killing a fish. This also, is why we recommend getting a mandy LATER rather than early---ich is much less common once you establish a good quarantine routine and have good stable water quality. This is a pest that multiplies like mad when there are plenty of weakened fish about in poor quality water---which is a good reminder to test your water quality for far more than just nitrate and ammonia.

It's helpful to understand the life cycle of this pest: read Snorvich's article in the stickies---so you understand how it lies in wait, why and when it HAS to reproduce or die out, etc: and learn to recognize it.

 

[tmz]

Most any fish can get ich. Some are more resitive due to there slime coats but the parasite can get at them via the softer tissuses in the gills, nostrills and mouth. Wrasses have no particular resistance to crytocaryon that I have observed
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</td></tr></tbody></table>If you are asking about the symptoms for flukes( a flatworm which lives and reproduces on the fish without a free swimming phase. They are deadly without treatment and seem to pop up on wrasses with some frequency. Symptoms are similar to ich: scrapping. twitching, rapid gill movement and other signs of trouble breathing. like swimming into current or brathing near the surface; sometimes they inlcude; reddened skin, paleness,mucous buildup, deterioration of the fins. Often tell tale eye spots can be seen with a magnifying glass. They often take several weeks to show obvious symptoms,ime and may have been missed during qt. A fish may be fine one day star acting erratically and drop dead the next.

The sixline wrasse ( Pseudochellinus hexataenia) is usually quite aggressive toward other wrasses; sometimes viciously so , particularly fairy wrasses like your ailing (Chirhrhilabrus scottorum). This may account for the skin damage. Watch them closely. You may need to separate them.

 

[snorvich]

So you are saying no one can prove it either way so it automatically goes in your favor? makes sense...can't argue with that


Well, if you wish to spend money on UV, go for it. Our experience (RC staff) is that it is ineffective

Just poked around for about 20 mins and never really found anything but mixed results. Maybe I didn't poke long enough.

Enjoy. Google and Google Scholar are great sources. The problem is there is no peer reviewed research on aquaria related stuff because there is no perceived academic or economic value.

If you do come across any information with a backbone I'd love to read it send me a private message anytime.

Absolutely. No $35 charge either. My source for academic stuff is Captive Seawater fishes by Steven Spotte. Worth purchasing if you like the academic approach; a great read although not an easy one . For a discussion of UV and its effects see page 462

 

[geaux xman]

i keep reading UV works well for multi-tank systems? such as LFS or DD for instance.

can someone briefly explain?

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

IMHO whether or not a certain intensity/exposure time of UV will kill a certain stage of the parasite's life is a completely moot point, given the nature of how UV is typically applied to a home reef tank system.

What's to stop a sustainable population of the parasite from living "out of reach" of the limited amount of flow that actually gets passed through the UV unit? You're not able to ensure treatment of 100% of the tank, so it's pretty much a given that there is going to be a population that never even sees the inside of your UV unit - hence, it doesn't really make a difference if the UV can kill them or not.

 

[snorvich]

i keep reading UV works well for multi-tank systems? such as LFS or DD for instance.

can someone briefly explain?

That is correct. When you have multiple tanks hooked together, with UV protecting the input water source for each tank or a common source, it works very well to protect those tanks. What it will not do is rid a given tank of the parasite but it will keep it from spreading. I think it is better with ich than with brook or oodinium under those circumstances.

 

[tmz]

Geaux man,

In multi tank application systems the water goes through a Uv from,one tank to another without returning to be recontaminated. This is a single pass application,resembling the way in which uv is used to sterilize water for drinking etc. . If the radiation dose is strong enough( more for larger organisms) to kill the targeted organism it is effective.

 

[idareefer]

When I introduced my Powder Blue over 5 years ago he became infected w ich, I just rode it out, 5 plus years later he is the bully in my system, if you keep good water & properly fed along with some natural cleaners, ( cleaner wrasse, cleaner shrimp ) I believe you can have great success letting your fish build up their natural immune systems. fish in my system includes a pair of percula clowns, female is about 13 years now in captivity, female naso, 6 years, purple tang, 6 plus years, cleaner wrasse, 3 plus years, shoal of blue eyed cardinals, 4 plus years, hippo tang, 4 plus years, mystery wrasse, 5 plus years, six line wrasse, 5 plus years, spotted mandarin, 5 plus years, swallow tail angel, newest addition about a year now, 2 dragon pipefish about a year, 5 year plus borbonius anthias, 4 plus year lawnmower blenny & a 13 plus year heteractis anemone, so again good water plus good nutrition can = healthy fish, & no UV

 

[tmz]

So you are saying no one can prove it either way so it automatically goes in your favor? makes sense...can't argue with that

I think I can communicate well enough without having words of sarcastic argument put in mouth. I said what I said so far I haven't heard any points of fact in your staements.

This explains it a little better: " Argument from Ignorance" Wikipedia:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

and this from it:

" Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic.......

In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof......

Argument from ignorance may be used as a rationalization by a person who realizes that he has no reason for holding the belief that he does...."



So exactly what reason do you have to think a small uv on a reef tank will have an appreicable effect on ich?

Skip the attitude and sarcasm; it's irksome and doesn't help anyone learn anything.

 

[b0bab0ey]

If I may add two things to this conversation:

About UV working on multi-tank systems: It is extremely important that the flow going thru the UV is slow enough to kill all the parasites passing through. It is also very important to change the UV bulb on a regular basis, to ensure maximum effectiveness. I think most manufacturers recommend every 6 months. Either one of these factors is off and it cuts down the UV's overall performance.

To idareefer: I'm not going to say I don't believe you because I never say never. I realize there are always exceptions to every rule. Eventually somebody has got to win the lottery, right? But IMHO your experience is the 1 in 100, where the other 99 who tried to "ride it out" saw their tank wiped out to Ich.

 

[idareefer]

I still believe in the natural method, I don't think I'm 1 in 100, their are many many reef systems with long living fish, I failed to mention mine is a 300 gallon system, I believe size is key in having long lived residents, too many try to put in fish into smaller than needed systems which creates more stress on the fish than needed, ya their those who have success in smaller systems, however for the majority it can become a difficult task to keep fish long term, especially the ones that are very sensitive, I'm not even sure I'm having the best success with fish living from 6 - 13 years, in nature some of these fish can live for 20 - 30 years or more, I love to scuba dive, have been for over 25 years & see all the hard to keep fish large, healthy & for sure deal with parasites who host on most living organisms yet they seem to fight off these pests the natural way, this is just an opinion & small successes I have had through the years, it works for me but may not work for others, BTW I have never quarantined a fish

 

[b0bab0ey]

I still believe in the natural method, I don't think I'm 1 in 100, their are many many reef systems with long living fish, I failed to mention mine is a 300 gallon system, I believe size is key in having long lived residents, too many try to put in fish into smaller than needed systems which creates more stress on the fish than needed, ya their those who have success in smaller systems, however for the majority it can become a difficult task to keep fish long term, especially the ones that are very sensitive, I'm not even sure I'm having the best success with fish living from 6 - 13 years, in nature some of these fish can live for 20 - 30 years or more, I love to scuba dive, have been for over 25 years & see all the hard to keep fish large, healthy & for sure deal with parasites who host on most living organisms yet they seem to fight off these pests the natural way, this is just an opinion & small successes I have had through the years, it works for me but may not work for others, BTW I have never quarantined a fish

Fish living in the ocean have a gazillion to 1 water to parasite ratio. Most fishes immune systems can handle those kind of odds. An aquarium is an enclosed system, doesn't matter if it's 300 gallons or 30,000 gallons. The fish have no where to go to escape the parasites, and the parasites have the fish trapped in this enclosed system where they can keep reproducing and increasing in number. It's a numbers game that even a fish with the best immune system eventually loses. It's just too many parasites to fight off.

Think of it this way: If you're outside in a park with a bunch of sick people (say, a cold virus), you might not get sick. However, if you're in a small room with those same sick people and they never leave, they're with you 24/7, what do you think your odds are of not getting sick?

 

[jamesbaur13]

I'm sorry to have started this debate... wasn't my intention.


I know what you all are advising comes from experience (and I appreciate the advice) and the overwhelming majority has had better success by going fallow, but I'm not in the position to do that at this moment.

I have limited space, time and funds.

Unfortunately and also cruel... the only way I can go fallow is if I have less fish than I have now. If the Ich blows up I'm going to have to make a choice of which fish I treat and which ones do not receive treatment and remain in the DT... my hospital tank is limited in size.

I started this thread in hopes of getting responses that would help me treat my fish within my own means... as *** backwards as my treatment for it may be.

 

[idareefer]

this thread really got out of hand, instead of attacking we should be sharing our successes & experiences, ya we all know the ocean is vast & closed systems are much more difficult, and as a reefer for many years I can only attest to what I have experienced, so lets talk about what has worked & continues to work for us in this great hobby.

 

[tmz]

jamesbaur 13. Sorry, I have no advice on how to manage a tank with ich in it. Not being snarky there just isn't a way beyond giving false hope and buying stuff that doesn't work. I've tried most of them over the years and fish died. The efffective methods for treating it and preventing it have been stated throughout the thread. The are also hundreds of other threads and studies on it.

 

[tmz]

I still believe in the natural method......never quarantined a fish

A closed droplet of water with confined parasite population is not at all natural whether it's 50 gallons, 300 gallons or 600 gallons.
Nutrition, proper fish selection for the habitat, size and tankmates and many other things are all good husbandry but have nothing to do with cryptocaryon irritans.
It's a parasite, it has been well studied , has a defined life cycle and proven treatments .It comes into the tank with infected fish which are very common in the trade and it kills healthy as well as stressed fish.
Some fish may survive depending on the virulence of the strain and develop partial immunity to that strain . Many don't.
It doesn't just go away in a tank with fish at least not for years and may not be gone even then. Failing to quarantine and tacitly recommending against it it will only add to the widespread carnage it causes in the hobby.Running a tank with ich in it is not a good thing.
Tank transfer treatments don't involve meds or hypo; just moving the fish away from encysting parasites to a clean tank every 3 days for 4 transfers. On a reef the million gallon water changes per day coupled with the fish's ability to swim , over a range no teensy home aquarium can offer, accomplish the same abandonment of the protomonts, tomonts and tomites.. Tank transfer is not very hard,or expensive and very effective as a treatment for infested fish or prophylactically for new specimens in conjunction with quarantine. Treating an infected tank by leaving it fishless let's the parasites starve like they would in nature without a host.

Understanding ich and treating it is not complicated but it is inconvenient and takes a little work, much less than trying to convince yourself it's not necessary though.

Many of my fish are 8 years old which is when I got them.Some have even survived bouts of ich and prolonged periods in infected water since I followed every trail( uvs, 4 are on the self, garlic, cleaner shrimp, enriched feeding et alia) to avoid leaving the tank fallow and treating them properly over the first couple of years, but sadly many died due to my own arrogance , ignorance and a willingness to accept bad advice coupled with an unwilingnes to do what it takes in study and a little work. .
I skipped quarantine too , acting on bad advice and following my taste for instant gratification. It's got to be better for the fish to get into the big tank where I can enjoy watching him, Doesn't it? I reasoned wrongly. The fish paid for those mistakes. I hope I can help others avoid them and will continue to challenge misperceptions and bad information when I see it.

 

[jamesbaur13]

jamesbaur 13. Sorry, I have no advice on how to manage a tank with ich in it.

OK.

There were 2 points I hit on in my original post... one of which you have responded to with the above statement, as have many others in varying ways.

Of the 78 posts on this only one (b0b) hit on the 2nd of my 2 questions, so I'll ask it again...

I realize secondary infection is one of the biggest threats I have. I have ethromycin... any other antibiotics that would be advised to keep on hand?

Does anyone have any advice for this? This would not be used in the DT and it would be best if they are able to be used with copper.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Does anyone have any advice for this? This would not be used in the DT and it would be best if they are able to be used with copper.

FWIW, I use Maracyn 1 & 2 (so, erythromycin and minocycline respectively) w/Copper all the time. No issues.