Looking for a bit of help and advice...

[mfisher2112]

Hello all. I have spent a good portion of the past 8 hours sifting through the piles of information on the net, and have landed mostly on this site. Before I even begin, thanks to everyone who takes their time to help out here!

I have been keeping freshwater rigs for about 15 years (everything from south american dwarf cichlids, to discus (including breeders!) to african cichlids to "community" fresh water) and am now finally going to try my timid hand at marine.

Right now, I have a 55gallon long with a standard two light bar hood (which I know will have to be replaced), I also have the following equipment:

- Aquaclear 70 (formerly aquaclear 300, approx. 300 gph)
- (2x) Powerhead 201 (submersible)
- (1x) Powerhead 802 (submersible)
- several varrying size and wattage heaters (I prefer using multiple heaters in all my rigs, so I always have extras)

I want a small community with live rock and fish.

I would like to know (since I have had several locals tell me that it is) if this equipment is sufficient to begin with.

And also, any recomendations on existing equipment and any necessary equipment.

I have read conflicting views on using southdown play sand as a base with added LS, vs crushed coral, so that has me a bit confused.

I have also had several locals tell me that sumps and protein skimmers were not necessary in such a "small" (small being relative of course) rig.

ANNNY input, good or bad, will be GREATLY appreciated! I would like to start off with this 55g rig and eventually (maybe in a few years time) move to a custom 100+ gallon rig once I am comfortable that I can begin and maintain a healthy eco-system.

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[scrmbld33]

WELCOME!!!! so far it seems like your on the right track, i would use the aquaclear without the biowheels if it has them,

you will also need a skimmer, without a sump it will have to be hang on the back style,

i prefer a sump, its great to hide the skimmer heaters, etc plus give you more water volume and you can add a refugium too

i have approx 150lbs of south down in my tank, no probs to date, just make sure you get about a pound of live sand from a fellow reefer or online to seed it,

youll probly need about 75lbs of live rock, which is your bio filter, do a search about curing live rock

also get some good test kits and a good water source, like a LFS or your own ro/di unit, your own will save you in the long run,

hope that helps and there is a ton of info on this site and alot of good vendors to order rock/drygoods from in the sponsors section

 

[mfisher2112]

Hi scrmbld33, thanks for the reply and the welcome! I noticed you are a fellow South Jersian!

The aquaclear does not use bio wheels, it uses a "sponge" for particulate filtering, as well as an activated carbon "bag" and a ammo pouch for ammonia reduction. Should I remove all of that for marine? I have read some things stating that things like bio-wheels can be ammonia factories in the long run.

I have been pricing pre-fab sump multi chamber systems. Is it possible to do this with 2 ten gallon tanks? I have some spares "lying" around from previous breeding days.

There is an aquarium shop in Blackwood on Blackwood-Clementon road called, oddly enough, "The Aquarium Center" that I used to frequent for my south americans and my discus tanks. I may check with him as I recall him having quite the extensive collection of marine fish and live rock. I may even be able to get LS from him as well. Dominick, I believe his name was.

I have a utility sink near my utility room that I am considering adding an RO unit to. It is close enough to the area that will contain the aquarium that I should be able to use my Python with the syphon turned off to pump the water directly from the RO equiped faucet to the tank.

Do you recomend filling and then adding the sand, or adding the sand first?

Thanks a ton for the help! I appreciate it!

 

[whiteshark]

You could put the sand in, then put some slate on top of the sand and pour the water in slowely. This will significantly reduce the dust storm.

 

[mfisher2112]

Thanks whiteshark.

I seem to be having difficulty locating this Southdown pay sand. Rumor has it that the company is not sellig it to homedepot any more. Is there an alternative? I know I need to put the live sand on top, but the expense of 4" of live sand is a little hard to swallow. (That, and I think the wife would pummel me about the head and neck!!)

Lowes carrys "Quickcrete Playsand", any difference?

 

[whiteshark]

I don't think you will find southdown anywhere anymore. There was a substitue that they said was pretty similar, but I forget the name. There was a very long thread about it in the reef discussion forum. You could try to search that forum for it, if your search works. Mine never does... Maybe someone else can find it for you.

 

[whiteshark]

Oh, and i'm not familiar with the quickcrete playsand.

 

[mfisher2112]

Thanks shark. Seems my searching has yielded the same information. Apparently, Southdown has changed its name and is selling the same sand at 3 times the price as aquarium sand in petstores.

Someone on another site suggested Old Kastle instead, claiming it to be from the same makers.

And my search doesn't work either...

 

[whiteshark]

It doesn't work because we don't pay :lol: The premium members have priority over us.

 

[mfisher2112]

LOL Yeah, I hear ya. So far lots of good info, though. May be worth paying for! Only time will tell!

 

[Bambalamb]

First off, welcome to the board! There are hundreds of knowledgable people on this board that will help with any questions/problems you might have.

As to the sand, there is a good thread right now in this forum titled "vinegar test" that may help. Personally, I have Oldcastle sand in my 75 reef that has served me well. I wouldn't recommend crushed coral.

I don't think you will be needing any filters.

You can make a good sump/refugium from one of your old tanks-the bigger the better, IMO.

HTH

 

[mfisher2112]

Thanks Bambalamb. I found one thread

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=852392

That I am sifting through now. Appears that there is quite the difference of opinion regarding araganite vs silca. I plan on adding a layer of live sand to it anyway, so I suppose it really doesn't matter so long as it is not chemically treated, and the grain and consistency is good, and the color is acceptable.


*sigh* South American Cichlids are so much more cut and dry compared to this! LOL!

Thanks for the help!

 

[Sk8r]

You can make a sump out of a rubbermaid bucket if you're desperate! And it makes all the additives we have to use go in so much more safely!

Here are the 'divisions' of the saltwater hobby: [mine, not official]

1. FOWLR---fish only, live rock, live sand. Just what it says. No corals. Under this heading you may see "Fish Only---Aggressive" and other combinations. This frequently runs with a filter of some sort and with carbon to try to take care of the high protein output. A skimmer is really useful here. You can have anemones, which I personally don't recommend in any other kind of tank.

2. nano---midsize---large reef. Nanos up to 29 gal, large reefs sort of start at 90 gallons, and may be coral or fish or both. The larger you get the more skimmer you need.

3. Reef: any tank containing any coral [mushrooms count: in fact there are gorgeous mushroom-only reef tanks.] Skimmers are useful here, particularly as you go up the scale of fussiness of the corals.
a. least fussy: mushrooms, mostly, but there ARE fussy mushrooms. They don't like mh light. Good light is required, however.
b. next, zooanthids and palythoas. Buttons and seamats. Beautiful, colorful, again, they don't like mh. They can give off toxins, and running carbon in the filter is often suggested.
c. leathers and softies---actually everything from mushrooms to here are rated 'softies', meaning no calcium skeleton. They're often visually indistinguishable from stonies. Some require more light than others. They're chemically active, again, and some are more aggressive than others, chemically speaking. Skimmer and carbon recommended when you get into the leathers, colt coral, sarcophytons, sinularia, etc. They can 'fuss' with one another. People often keep fish with their softies---
d. Now we start the Stony categories: first the lps: the large polyp stonies: they do really need a skimmer, and do not do well with any nitrate or ammonia in the water. A lot of live rock and live sand is good. They take good lighting, will tolerate mh, though a few, like bubble, don't like it much at all. They can be mixed with sps, and with mushrooms, but not with leathers or zoos. Skimmer advised, no filters. These corals often aggress with extended strands or tentacles after dark.
e. The sps, 'small polyp stonies' are the colored branching sticks, encrusting growths, and other tiny-polyp corals. A handful of types can get by on non-mh light, but most require it. Definitely a skimmer. No filters. Needs lots of inverts to convert food to the size of those tiny mouths. These can mix with mushrooms and lps, not with zoos and leathers.

Far from comprehensive and way over simplified, but trying to paint with a broad brush and give a view of the basic situations and choices. HTH.

 

[mfisher2112]

Thanks Sk8r. That was helpful.

I'm taking this nice and slow. I don't want to learn from my mistakes, I'm much happier learning from other's mistakes first!

 

[mfisher2112]

Thanks everyone for all the help. Still have a few questions, though.

The tank will not initially have a sump (but will be sure it does before fish get introduced), so in the beginning it will be using the Aquaclear 70 back mounted power filter:

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_filters_hagen_aquaclear_power.asp?CartId=
(moves about 100 gph)

2 x powerhead 201 (move about 126 gph each)

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8739/cid/2148

1 x powerhead 802 (moves about 400 gph)

http://www.aquariumguys.com/aquaclear22.html

I will be adding sand first, and then placing the water on top.

The tank is 55g long.

Questions:

1: Should I remove any or all of the filter medias from the aquaclear and simply use it for water flow?

2: The power heads are completely submersible (sp?). Is there any recomendation on where they should be placed? The aquaclear is hanging on the back left (if you are standing in front of the tank).
I will be adding live rock as well.

3: How much sand should I start with? And how much Live Sand should be added on top of that?

4: Should the live sand be added immediately, or following the water stabilization? (this is probably a stupid question, but a question none the less)

 

[whiteshark]

1. Depends on what kind of a tank you are going for. If it is going to be a FOWLR, then you can leave some of the media in to harbor some bacteria to break down ammonia and nitrite. If it is going to be a reef with at least 1 pound of rock per gallon, then, IMO, the rock will be enough filtration and you can remove the media.

2. The goal is to have flow everywhere (no dead spots). There are multiple ways to position powerheads to achive this, so whatever you like the best will work.

3. My sand bed is about 2 in deep. That is 80 lbs. in a 90 gal. I think 50-60 lbs should be good if you are going with a shallow sand bed.

4. Put the live sand in right away. It along with the lr is what is going to get your cycle started and eventually stabilize water params.

 

[JRistau81]

1) Leave in the carbon and if you are good about cleaning the filter floss, I'd leave it in to.

2) Place them in a way that flow gets all over the tank but also so that the flow "crashes" to create a random flow. Most important is that there are no dead spots.

3) Depends on if you want a deep sand bed, shallow sand bed, or bare bottom. I'm sure others with very strong opinions will chime in on this

You'll have to cycle the tank as soon as you put in all of your live rock and live sand. Actually this happens naturally. Dieoff occurs in the LR and LS causing a spike in ammonia. Then bacteria develop and turn the ammonia into less toxic nitrite. Then yet another bacteria form to turn nitrite into a much less toxic nitrate. Finally it is turned into harmless hitrogen gas. Once these colonies develop it is safe to add fish. This has to happen beforehand because fish poop and decaying food create ammonia and if it wasn't immediately changed like this, the fish would die from the toxicity. You'll need to get test kits for ammonia nitrite nitrate and pH to start so you can monitor this process. HTH

 

[brians_224]

better late than never....

Has your 55 ever been used during a copper treatment?

Regarding your q's:
1) Typically the Live Rock provides the filtration media. If it only moves 100gph - is it worth adding to your tank?

2) Try to place your powerheads to that they create the most random flow - aim their flow at each other or towards a glass surface so that they create a bounce/diffused effect

3) I went with all southdown - 2" then topped with a cup or 2 of live sand from my lfs

4) Because my sand was dead - I added the sand first. Then added premade salt water - specific gravity(sg) and temp were correct. (The only stupid question is one unasked )

For what its worth...I'd add the sump now. It will be easier to do now when you don't need to worry about impacting your critters. The sooner you get live rock in the tank the sooner the dust storm will end. There will be a dust storm - its only a matter of how big and how long.

Good Luck!

 

[JRistau81]

I second adding the sump now. All you need is a hang on back overflow, tank, and some sort and return pump It will significantly add to your water volume and flow. Both are very good things!

 

[mfisher2112]

Thanks Brians.

I'm not aware that the 55 has ever been used during a copper treatment. When it ran, it ran with a colony of south american apistogrammas. Probably about 4 breeding colonies. (the fish are only about 1 1/2" to 2"). All water was done through a small RO/DI unit because they were south american cichlids and needed low PH (about 5.5 to 6 to breed properly) and very soft water. But, that was about 6 years ago.

The filter is new, only recently removed from the box (it was a backup that was never needed). I guess I am still squeemish about the natural filtration thing. Breaking the habit of mechanical filtration will be difficult for me.

So, if I begin the tank with the 3 powerheads and the live sand and rock, I can avoid mechanical filtration alltogether?

As for the sump, what do you recomend for the size of tank? I'm completely in the dark when it comes to the sump and its components. I'm handy with plumbing, etc (re-plumbed my nearly 110 year old house last year), I just need to know the components necessary and the size of the tanks needed. Is it simply a matter of exchanging water from the show tank to a smaller tank below utilizing a pump to pull and a pump to push? (sorry, silly questions again...)