Looking for advice: stay the course, or make some changes

[rocknut]

Hello all -

Well, as my tank nears its one year anniversary, I'm faced with some decisions about staying my present course, or rethinking my approach. I had some major issues with my tank in December (had my skimmer overflow while I was away for the holidays which caused my nutrients to spike, which caused my alk update the dip, which caused my alk levels to spike, which in turn caused my coral tips to burn and some base recession, tank looking terrible, etc). Anyway, I made some changes to my equipment at this point and installed a recirculating pellet reactor running EcoBak pellets, added a self cleaning head to my skimmer with a collection container to get the skimmer running at peak efficiency, and started doing 10 gallon water changes every Wednesday and every Saturday using ESV salt ( which works out about 7.5% every water change, or 15% every week). Long story short: by the end of February everything was humming again, and by March I was seeing the best colors and growth I had ever seen. In fact things were going so well I started adding some Zeovit Pohls Xtra to make sure I was feeding the corals enough, and added a 10k t5 bulb to add some extra PAR...and then I ended up with a huge dinoflagellate bloom.

I have to figure that the extra nutrients from the Pohls Xtra and the extra red spectrum from the 10k bulb fueled this? So, after doing enough reading on dinoflagellates to figure there was a pretty good chance that I would eventually end up with all my live rock in buckets and my tank shut down for several months, I did my best to hit the problem head on: I increased my GFO from 3/4 cups to 2 cups being well circulated, added zeovit coral snow with zeobak every morning for ten days, and turned off the tank lights for three days.

This was about five weeks ago, and it seems to have worked (knock on wood). Problem being, even though I reduced my alk dosing in half, my alk levels still spiked from their normal 7.5 dkh up to 9.5, and my nutrients dropped to zero (Hanna phosphorus and phosphate meter, and Red Sea for NO3). So, as I brought my t5 lights back on for two hours a day, increasing an hour a week back up to the current five hours a day, I lost about half of my sps, and about half of the remaining corals have either burned tips, base recession, or both. Some even look like they were physically burned by the lights - which surprised me as I thought I was being MORE than conservative with my plan to slowly bring the lights back on. Anyway, here are some details about the tank:

150 gallon display
ATI Sunpower 8 x 54 watt lights (5 ATI Blue +, 2 Coral +, 1 purple +)
Bubble King Super Marin 200 skimmer with Avast self cleaning head, and skimmate locker
Recirculating pellet reactor with EcoBak pellets
1/4 hp chiller
Tunze 6105 and 6100 with wave box for flow
Profilux 3 with 4 head dosed (Brs Alk, Ca, Mg and Briightwell Potasium)
GAC passively in sump bag, GFO in reactor

Alk 8.1 Hanna checker and salifert (slowly bringing down to 7.5 target)
CA 450 Salifert and Red Sea
MG 1365 Salifert
Salinity 34 VeeGee Redfractometer - calibrated using distiller water and Sybon fluid (bringing back to 35)
K+ 400 Salifert
NO3 0 RedSea
PO4 0.03 Hanna

So, thanks for sticking with me thru that background. So, at this point I feel like I am at a sort of crossroads. I can do one of the following, and this is what I'm hoping my fellow SPS keepers can give their advice/feedback on:

A). Stay the present course. Keep running the EcoBak pellets, keep doing 2x weekly water changes to bring the water chemistry back in line. Push ahead with GFO and GAC with the pellets and try to find the balance between nutrient poor and rich. My concern is that I am making things more complicated than necessary. I feel like I am on a continual cycle where something will "go out of whack" every six months or so and kill half the corals, and I will scramble to save the remaining corals, get them to grow again, then way for the next "out of whack" episode and start the process over again? I should note that up until the dinoflagellate episode, my levels were ROCK steady: for example my Alk levels never dropped below 7.0, or went above 7.6. I have no problem doing the work to keep things constant.

B). Ditch the Ecobak pellets or any sort of UNLS concept and just run some GFO and GAC. Maybe a simplified system is less sensitive to the occasional "out of whack" episode? Deal with higher nutrients expecting less than perfect colors? At this point I could deal with duller colors if I could just have some consistent growth.

C). Go to something like Prodibio instead? Maybe easier to maintain using a "system" instead of a mix of different methodologies?

D). Turn the tank into a softie tank. My wife is baffled as to why I would devote so much time and money to such a stressful hobby. Not really considering this (yet) because I really do love SPS. Kind of embarrassed to admit this but I have been in the hobby for 10 years, and have been on this cycle of success, then disaster, then success, failure cycle the whole time, and feel like I am just missing something.

Again, appreciate everyone's time reading this, and would love to get some thoughts/advice. Anyone with any similar experiences?

Thanks!

Rocky

 

[cugly]

Try to keep it simple first then implement something one at time so you can figure out what is really causing the issues..I think with pellets and po4 reactor your stripping the water of a lot of the beneficial bacteria and potassium is probably low..

 

[rocknut]

Agree with you on the Potassium. Coming from a Zeovit tank previously, I dose Potassium and test weakly with a Salifert kit to make sure I'm between 380 and 400. Regarding the Ecobak pellets, because I have a recirculating reactor I have reduced the effluent rate in half. I'm trying to work out if I am better off taking it offline completely, or keeping it at 50%. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond!

 

[cugly]

I wouldn't take offline completely do it little at time and keep testing to see if any changes..don't want to it to change drastically ..try to eliminate the issue by doing one thing at a time eventually you will probably find what is causing your issue goodluck happy reefing and don't give up

 

[rocknut]

I wouldn't take offline completely do it little at time and keep testing to see if any changes..don't want to it to change drastically ..try to eliminate the issue by doing one thing at a time eventually you will probably find what is causing your issue goodluck happy reefing and don't give up

Cugly - sincerely want to say thank you for taking the time to read my big long thread, and offering some advice, and encouragement. I agree with you completely: I am going to dial back the pellets, but not take them offline, and watch for any nutrient spikes.

One other thing I would really like to get some thoughts on, and something that I am hopeful will benefit others, is that I would love to hear from anyone that has experience going from a ULNS like pellets back to a more simplified approach like only using GAC and GFO. With the first SPS tank I ran, when GFO was just coming onto the market, I basically had the basic Berlin system: tons of metal halide lighting, good skimmer, live rock, sand bed, and that was it. Because it was my first tank, and went thru the process of: setting up a calcium reactor, taking a refugium online, then back offline, etc, etc, I swear that my Alk levels would bounce around between 8 and 13 on a regular basis. The strange thing is that I never lost an SPS coral. They were totally brown, and never grew, but they didn't die. Seems like after running a ULNS system with my past two tanks (Zeovit before, and pellets now), things are more sensitive to minor changes? Honestly, maybe I was just lucky before...not really sure.
Anyway, my point is - I feel fairly confident that over the course of the next few months I can get things back on track again, and get everything growing. But I also feel like six months down the road, something will go askew, and I'll end up back in this same spot again. Just trying to figure out if there is a better way I guess? Maybe I won't have "tank of the month" colors, but at least have a tank that isn't quite so up and down?
Would love to hear for anyone that went from a ULNS back to a more basic system like skimmer, GAC and maybe GFO, and get their thoughts.
Thanks again -

 

[Pseudo69]

You have all the right equipment and the forethought to get through this. When I started my new build I built upon all of the methodologies that had worked for me on some of my better tank and then upgraded to some of the newest and "best" things out today. Mostly I did what you did. Bio-pellets, GAC, GFO Dosing prodibio calcium reactor and other stuff. It all worked for a while. Then it all hit the fan and it seemed all at once.

The Bio-pellet rector got clogged and wasn't working properly and nutrients went through the roof. The calcium reactor raised my alk to 15dkh and burned my tips (colors were great though go figure). Phosphate was high and calcium low. Needless to say I had forgotten the most important method for a SPS tank "Keep it simple".

I ended up taking the bio-pellet offline. Same went for the calcium reactor because I couldn't control them properly and if anything went wrong it was a disaster waiting to happen. Ended up using a doser with ESV 2 part. Best thing I ever did. Took the GFO offline because I was stripping the po4 from the water too quickly and colors faded. I kept dosing the Prodibio. Now that I did all of that the tank is stable now. The growth took off and the colors are incredible.

I had to do 1 thing at a time to see what I was doing wrong and I took notes along the way so I could see what worked and what didn't. If you do it all at once you will never know what was causing the problem. STABILITY is a SPS tanks best ally.

This is what the tank looks like now after only 12 weeks of changes

Before
<a href="http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Brugal_photos/media/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140113_212051_zpsghmbyf6k.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll220/Brugal_photos/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140113_212051_zpsghmbyf6k.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20140113_212051_zpsghmbyf6k.jpg"/></a>

After
<a href="http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Brugal_photos/media/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140601_174858_zpsozcdfnu7.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll220/Brugal_photos/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140601_174858_zpsozcdfnu7.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20140601_174858_zpsozcdfnu7.jpg"/></a>

Keep at it.You will get where you want it. Good luck

 

[rocknut]

You have all the right equipment and the forethought to get through this. When I started my new build I built upon all of the methodologies that had worked for me on some of my better tank and then upgraded to some of the newest and "best" things out today. Mostly I did what you did. Bio-pellets, GAC, GFO Dosing prodibio calcium reactor and other stuff. It all worked for a while. Then it all hit the fan and it seemed all at once.

The Bio-pellet rector got clogged and wasn't working properly and nutrients went through the roof. The calcium reactor raised my alk to 15dkh and burned my tips (colors were great though go figure). Phosphate was high and calcium low. Needless to say I had forgotten the most important method for a SPS tank "Keep it simple".

I ended up taking the bio-pellet offline. Same went for the calcium reactor because I couldn't control them properly and if anything went wrong it was a disaster waiting to happen. Ended up using a doser with ESV 2 part. Best thing I ever did. Took the GFO offline because I was stripping the po4 from the water too quickly and colors faded. I kept dosing the Prodibio. Now that I did all of that the tank is stable now. The growth took off and the colors are incredible.

I had to do 1 thing at a time to see what I was doing wrong and I took notes along the way so I could see what worked and what didn't. If you do it all at once you will never know what was causing the problem. STABILITY is a SPS tanks best ally.

This is what the tank looks like now after only 12 weeks of changes

Before
<a href="http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Brugal_photos/media/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140113_212051_zpsghmbyf6k.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll220/Brugal_photos/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140113_212051_zpsghmbyf6k.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20140113_212051_zpsghmbyf6k.jpg"/></a>

After
<a href="http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Brugal_photos/media/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140601_174858_zpsozcdfnu7.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll220/Brugal_photos/120g%20Reefomania%20Rimless/20140601_174858_zpsozcdfnu7.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20140601_174858_zpsozcdfnu7.jpg"/></a>

Keep at it.You will get where you want it. Good luck

Pseudo69,

First off: your tank looks amazing. You have done a great job, no doubt about it. Secondly, thank you for taking the time to read thru this thread and offer your experiences, and advice. That is exactly what I am looking for, and really appreciate it.

If you don't mind, I have a few additional questions for you after reading your post?

Curious about your nutrient levels since you have taken the biopellets, and GFO offline? Did you notice an initial big spike, and if so, have things kind of balanced out? I have read several threads recently about SPS keepers that have kept up with water changes, and maintenance, but have basically stopped checking PO4 and NO3 and seem to be having great results. Are you still keeping any GFO on hand in case levels rise? Also, are using any GAC?
Since I have a good quality, large skimmer, and never go more than 4 days without doing a small water change, along with a relatively small bioload (4 anthias, a Lieutenant Tang, and a Melanurus Wrasse in a 150 gallon), that should be able to keep up with the nutrients produced WITHOUT all the additional pellets, etc.

Have you found that you can run a higher Alk level now that the biopellets are offline?

Also, I was hoping you could elaborate on your use of Prodibio? What additives are you using? Biodigest and Bioptim?

Again, I really appreciate your post!

 

[Pseudo69]

The bio-pellets weren't doing much for me as far as keeping the nitrates down. My tank reading was 50ppm and the effluent from the reactor was 30ppm. So I would have needed to run a larger amount of pellets to get it down. The problem was that the holes in the reactor kept getting clogged when running a larger amount and the pump couldn't keep up. A design flaw with the reactor is what I came up with.

After I took it offline my nitrates did rise to 60 ppm but settled in around there. I had stopped dosing the prodibio at one point so I could see if it was working or not. It was but my nitrates didn't rise much higher than when I was dosing but I did notice an algae outbreak in my lower flow areas, so it was helping. I eventually came up with thee idea that I need more nitrifying area (live rock) to deal with my nutrient load but had no place to put more rock. I eventually went with MarinePure blocks. In 3 weeks my nitrates dropped to 20 ppm and now holding at 10 ppm.I am just using Biodigest now and once in a blue moon the Reef Booster (just because I had some left and it doesn't hurt).

I stopped using GFO because it was keeping my po4 at undetectable levels and the corals looked starved and pale. I was reading that you should have some po4 as well as some nitrate because the corals need some for calcium building and growth and the colors come back richer.

Yes, I can run a higher level of alk because I am no longer carbon dosing. No more burnt tips. I do dose amino acids (Acropower and Zeofood7) alternatively twice a week. Also I dose strontium and Potassium once a week. I noticed my blues came back really nice with the potassium addition.

I have to run carbon due to the fact I am running an ozone setup which also keeps my water VERY clear. I will always have carbon and GFO on hand just in case I do something stupid or the unthinkable happens. I also keep up with bi-weekly water changes of 26 gallons. It doesn't hurt and I always get a growth spurt right after. I have a large bio-load with fish and it is getting larger but the tank seems to hold up.

Thanks for the compliments. I am trying hard to keep a successful tank long term. So far so good.

 

[Stolireef]

I really love this thread and I'm tagging along. I've gone the KISS route with my current build. Slightly wet skimming, good rock, good Ca Reactor and low fish bioload. It's too soon to tell if it will be successful but I love how much the maintenance has been reduced by this approach.

 

[rocknut]

The bio-pellets weren't doing much for me as far as keeping the nitrates down. My tank reading was 50ppm and the effluent from the reactor was 30ppm. So I would have needed to run a larger amount of pellets to get it down. The problem was that the holes in the reactor kept getting clogged when running a larger amount and the pump couldn't keep up. A design flaw with the reactor is what I came up with.

After I took it offline my nitrates did rise to 60 ppm but settled in around there. I had stopped dosing the prodibio at one point so I could see if it was working or not. It was but my nitrates didn't rise much higher than when I was dosing but I did notice an algae outbreak in my lower flow areas, so it was helping. I eventually came up with thee idea that I need more nitrifying area (live rock) to deal with my nutrient load but had no place to put more rock. I eventually went with MarinePure blocks. In 3 weeks my nitrates dropped to 20 ppm and now holding at 10 ppm.I am just using Biodigest now and once in a blue moon the Reef Booster (just because I had some left and it doesn't hurt).

I stopped using GFO because it was keeping my po4 at undetectable levels and the corals looked starved and pale. I was reading that you should have some po4 as well as some nitrate because the corals need some for calcium building and growth and the colors come back richer.

Yes, I can run a higher level of alk because I am no longer carbon dosing. No more burnt tips. I do dose amino acids (Acropower and Zeofood7) alternatively twice a week. Also I dose strontium and Potassium once a week. I noticed my blues came back really nice with the potassium addition.

I have to run carbon due to the fact I am running an ozone setup which also keeps my water VERY clear. I will always have carbon and GFO on hand just in case I do something stupid or the unthinkable happens. I also keep up with bi-weekly water changes of 26 gallons. It doesn't hurt and I always get a growth spurt right after. I have a large bio-load with fish and it is getting larger but the tank seems to hold up.

Thanks for the compliments. I am trying hard to keep a successful tank long term. So far so good.

Once again - thanks for your input and advice. One more question for you: I noticed that you are only dosing the Biodigest portion of the Prodibio system (other than the Reef Booster). Is this a conscious decision? Do you feel that adding Prodibio Bioptim along with the Prodibio Biodigest starts leading you down the road of ULNS and additional complication? I have read in several different places that the Prodibio system isn't considered a "true" ULNS, as it isn't as aggressive as Zeovit, biopellets, etc. It appears that some people have had success running higher Alk levels, but other people seem to group it in with Zeovit and Biopellets, so not quite sure about that...

Thanks again -

Rocky

 

[rocknut]

I really love this thread and I'm tagging along. I've gone the KISS route with my current build. Slightly wet skimming, good rock, good Ca Reactor and low fish bioload. It's too soon to tell if it will be successful but I love how much the maintenance has been reduced by this approach.

Thanks for your input! I see that you are in the Scottsdale area. I work in Scottsdale, and live out in the east valley.

The funny thing is that when I put this tank together last summer, I really felt like I WAS doing it the KISS route. :spin3: My previous tank had been full blown Zeovit, and although I know beyond the shadow of a doubt the Zeovit system works (plenty of proof out there), I had really nothing but trouble after the first few months. Once the bacterial element of the system goes out of whack, it can be a huge challenge getting things balanced again, and I really never was able to do that. So with this tank, I felt like eliminating the dosing, the Zeo reactor, etc, etc, and just using GAC, GFO and a big skimmer was my "back to basics" build. Then I started doing some more reading about biopellets, and things spiraled out of control and got fairly complicated again...

 

[Stolireef]

Oh, you're system isn't that complex. See this post at #205
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2308288&page=9

16 dosing pumps.

 

[Stolireef]

BTW, as of right now, I'm not running any media in the tank. I can easily add a media reactor but my goal is to avoid that if at all possible.

 

[Pseudo69]

Yeah it is just a bacteria additive to out compete with any "bad" bacteria. That's the theory anyway. It was a conscious decision as it can become an expensive additive and an expense I didn't want to have. Does it work? Well I know it doesn't hurt.. I had started using the entire line from the start and I do have to say I had a minimal break in period and no problems since.I think it is a great product but not all together necessary except maybe in the beginning.

 

[dadummy]

keep it simple, stable parameters and water changes, people have been successful that way for years.

I went bio pellets, gfo, vinegar , potassium, iron, this and that. All I did was bang my head against the wall chasing numbers

Back to two part, skimmers and water changes.. life is good

 

[rocknut]

keep it simple, stable parameters and water changes, people have been successful that way for years.

I went bio pellets, gfo, vinegar , potassium, iron, this and that. All I did was bang my head against the wall chasing numbers

Back to two part, skimmers and water changes.. life is good

Thanks for the feedback, dadummy.

Out of curiosity, what do your nutrient levels look like? Do you feel like water changes and skimming are taking care of these levels? Do you find you have to be more aware of feeding, etc?
Thanks -

 

[dadummy]

haven't tested nitrate or phosphate in a while, i do have blue ochtodes growing in the sump to help with nutrient export and add about 20ml vinegar to 5 gallon kalk top off that lasts about 2.5 days

Six months or so ago I removed most of the fish and found them new home in system, the tangs were outgrowing the 150. Down now to around 6 fish, couple small tangs, couple wrasses, blenny and straggler cromis so I don't feed much, pellets once a day

The problem I kept running into with carbon dosing and gfo was I would strip the tank too clean, colors were pale, occasional stn. Even tried dosing sodium nitrate to help remove the PO4. Sure there test kits read zero but corals weren't happy.

I suggested keeping it simple to get tank inhabitants happy, colors may not be the best, a little nuisance algae here and there, clean the glass more often etc. Once everything is stable and the recession stopped and corals are growing you slowly bring things back online and see what works for. Every tank is different, what works in yours may not in mine

 

[dowtish]

I would leave the ecobak online. dose some bacteria for a few weeks and see if the dinos go away. If not chemi clean will knock it out.

 

[rocknut]

I would leave the ecobak online. dose some bacteria for a few weeks and see if the dinos go away. If not chemi clean will knock it out.

Thanks, Dowtish, appreciate your thoughts. Also, love your tank thread!

I went ahead and reduced the effluent rate coming from the EcoBak reactor, as it is a recirculating reactor, and I can keep a steady tumble rate on the pellets, but just reduce the effluent, and I was able to bump up the NO3 in the tank from undetectable to 2-3. This might be the way to go, and the whole reason I bought the recirculating reactor in the first place - getting a small amount of NO3 in the water, without totally stripping the tank. My PO4 has also stayed right at 0.03 even without GFO.

Now, just need to get rid of this dino, and I think my levels should be pretty good - low nutrients, but nothing too crazy low that cause trouble. I started another three days of lights out again today as the dinos are definitely coming back (although way less than before), and I am starting to dose Zeo Snow / ZeoBak again to try to outcompete them. Hadn't read anything about using Chemiclean on them - glad there is another option I hadn't considered.

Thanks again

 

[rocknut]

So, I would really appreciate getting some feedback specifically on the nutrient levels I am seeing in my tank. I was able to reduce the effluent rate of my biopellet reactor, and totally remove the GFO I was running, and my nutrient levels are as follows:

PO4 - 0.025 (Hanna Phosphorus test)
NO3 - 2-3 (Red Sea)

To me I would think this was a good balance between stripping the tank of too many nutrients and starving the corals, and having too many nutrients? I ask because my SPS still look like crap. Of course I have had two lights out periods of three days over the last month fighting the dinos, and up until two weeks ago I had totally undetectable PO4 & NO3 levels after running my biopellets hard, and using a lot of GFO, also to fight the dinos. So I imagine it will take some time for the SPS to recover from this, but any thoughts on these nutrient levels going forward?

I figure that since I have my Ecobak pellets running now, I might as well try this before pulling them totally offline.

Thanks again -