Looking for electrical advice from an experienced professional

Dundermifflin

New member
I've read several different posts and blogs and still not sure what to do about setting my system up properly with respect to electrical. Also read some pretty bad stories.

I have everything plugged in to an 8 outlet power rack which has a 3-prong connection both in and out (this allows me to control everything at a flip of a button). The power rack is plugged in to an older surge protector, (3-pronged) which is plugged into a GFI wall outlet. Last week I got a buzz when I stuck my hand in the tank. After unplugging everything I was able to determine the source-3 month old heater (Eheim-Jagar). A couple days later I got a buzz when I stuck my hand into my salt mixing barrel. Determined it was an older pump. GFI did not trip and all power was going as normal-light on GFI outlet was green. I also have some other things (fans and heaters) that are not plugged in to the power rack. These are plugged into another surge that plugs in to the same GFI outlet.

Here are my questions:

1) Why did the GFI not trip? Is this because the pump is not a 3-prong connection
2) Is the GFI still effective with everything being plugged into a power rack-plugged in to a surge-plugged in to GFI outlet?
3) Does the equipment have to be plugged in directly to the GFI outlet for the GFI to work properly?
3) How can I create a safer setup? What should I add or change?

Appreciate any feedback!
 
Not an expert but I had an electrician look at my electrical load and install some separate circuits just for my fishroom stuff. Good luck
 
GFCI
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter
It wont trip unless the power runs from the hot to the ground. IE it will still electrocute you without tripping.
And I agree with gone. While I haven't yet I am about to redo the wiring in my house so all my tanks are on their own circuit.

Oh and no electrician just an electrical engineer jack of all trades.
 
GFCI
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter
It wont trip unless the power runs from the hot to the ground. IE it will still electrocute you without tripping.
And I agree with gone. While I haven't yet I am about to redo the wiring in my house so all my tanks are on their own circuit.

Oh and no electrician just an electrical engineer jack of all trades.

I think you need to recheck what a GFCI does. What do you think they do if they do not protect you from shock? The sole purpose of a GFCI outlet or breaker is to protect you from shock and electrocution.

A ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) or Residual Current Device (RCD) is a device that shuts off an electric power circuit when it detects that current is flowing along an unintended path, such as through water or a person. It is used to reduce the risk of electric shock, which can cause the heart to stop or cause burns. They can also prevent some fires, like when a live wire touches a metal conduit.

It is very wise to have them on your tank. And required by code in most areas anywhere near water.
 
I've read several different posts and blogs and still not sure what to do about setting my system up properly with respect to electrical. Also read some pretty bad stories.

I have everything plugged in to an 8 outlet power rack which has a 3-prong connection both in and out (this allows me to control everything at a flip of a button). The power rack is plugged in to an older surge protector, (3-pronged) which is plugged into a GFI wall outlet. Last week I got a buzz when I stuck my hand in the tank. After unplugging everything I was able to determine the source-3 month old heater (Eheim-Jagar). A couple days later I got a buzz when I stuck my hand into my salt mixing barrel. Determined it was an older pump. GFI did not trip and all power was going as normal-light on GFI outlet was green. I also have some other things (fans and heaters) that are not plugged in to the power rack. These are plugged into another surge that plugs in to the same GFI outlet.

Here are my questions:

1) Why did the GFI not trip? Is this because the pump is not a 3-prong connection
2) Is the GFI still effective with everything being plugged into a power rack-plugged in to a surge-plugged in to GFI outlet?
3) Does the equipment have to be plugged in directly to the GFI outlet for the GFI to work properly?
3) How can I create a safer setup? What should I add or change?

Appreciate any feedback!

1) I would not use any equipment that's submerged in water or for continuous use that doesn't have a ground wire.
2) I would not have power strips plugged into power strips. Most manufactuers clearly label warnings not to do this.
3) No. Any piece of equipment that fails on the circuit will trip the GFCI as long as it's wired properly.
4)First add a grounding probe to both your display and sump. This will send a voltage leak to ground rather than through you. Second I would add one or two more outlets to the existing GFCI outlet. This way you have enough outlets to plug the grounding probes directly into the wall outlet (recommended) and you can run seperate power strips from each outlet. It may be wise to add a dedicated circuit and split equipment between the two circuits to eliminate the possibility of a tripped GFCI from shutting down all of the life support on your tank. For example, have one powerhead on one circuit and a second powerhead on the other. In addition, this should eliminate the possibility of overloading an existing circuit. Also, I'm not a fan of DJ power racks. I find they are bulky for our needs as the were designed to fit in a rack. A better options is a surge protector power strip with individual switches. They can be found at TigerDirect for ~$20.

Also, test your GFCI outlet and see if it trips. They do go bad from time to time.
 
To answer the original question a GFCI has nothing to do with the ground wire, it monitors the current across the hot and neutral slots. When there is enough of a difference in current from one to the other it trips. What you are felling is probably less than the threshold to trip the GFCI outlet OR it is not installed properly.
 
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I'm against grounding probes you don't need them. All they really do is cover up a problem with faulty equipment that should be replaced. As long as your equipment is working properly they won't do anything.
 
GFCI
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter
It wont trip unless the power runs from the hot to the ground. IE it will still electrocute you without tripping.
And I agree with gone. While I haven't yet I am about to redo the wiring in my house so all my tanks are on their own circuit.

Oh and no electrician just an electrical engineer jack of all trades.

This is incorrect.
 
I think you need to recheck what a GFCI does. What do you think they do if they do not protect you from shock? The sole purpose of a GFCI outlet or breaker is to protect you from shock and electrocution.

A ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) or Residual Current Device (RCD) is a device that shuts off an electric power circuit when it detects that current is flowing along an unintended path, such as through water or a person. It is used to reduce the risk of electric shock, which can cause the heart to stop or cause burns. They can also prevent some fires, like when a live wire touches a metal conduit.

It is very wise to have them on your tank. And required by code in most areas anywhere near water.

Totally agree with your comment.
from a Licensed E1
 
I'm against grounding probes you don't need them. All they really do is cover up a problem with faulty equipment that should be replaced. As long as your equipment is working properly they won't do anything.

This is terrible advice. And I caution anyone not to follow it. Are you an electrician? Is it better to find out you have faulty equipment via death by electrocution?

Article from an electrical engineer who is also a hobbyist.
https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aquarist-found-dead/

Hobbyist found dead. Electrocuted.
http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/general-discussions/32580-herkie.html
 
This is terrible advice. And I caution anyone not to follow it. Are you an electrician? Is it better to find out you have faulty equipment via death by electrocution?

Article from an electrician who is also a hobbyist.
https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aquarist-found-dead/

Hobbyist found dead. Electrocuted.
http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/general-discussions/32580-herkie.html

This topic has been debated to death, there are a lot of different scenarios in play here, basically if you have a GFCI's installed properly there is no need for them.

I don't know of any codes that require grounding probs in pools hot tubs or sinks.
 
Here happy reading:-)

The grounding probe can be plugged to any grounded (three prung receptacle but the circuit(s) feeding the power to the aquarium equipment need to have GFCI installed to protect the aquarist.

A GFCI does not make the ground probe either necessary or un-necessary but a ground probe makes a GFCI necessary.

Here is the long and detailed answer so please stay with me.

There are several possible cases or scenarios of short circuit in an aquarium system.

Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)

b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.

c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.

d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.

So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.

Scenario 2: Short circuit between hot line and neutral on submerged equipment:[B/]

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe: device and line will over heat. if current is high enough breaker will trip but it may take some time 10 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on the quality of the short. Plastic parts or rubber seals on the device may melt creating a secondary short reviewed under scenario 1 and releasing toxic chemicals into the water also copper wire may get exposed also releasing copper sulphate and other copper compounds to the water. Large mortality of critter is most probable.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: GFCI will not activate even if a secondary short to water is created as the water is not grounded and there will be no leakage current to create a current un-balance between hot and neutral so GFCI will not be able to detect the situation. Here as in 2a above (as well as 2c below) you are dependant on the breaker.

c) Ground probe installed but no GFCI: Same situation as in 2a above but if a secondary short is created current will be established killing the tank inhabitants but just probably faster than the toxic chemicals or copper compounds. Here you are dependant on the breaker.

d) GFCI and ground Probe installed: If a secondary short is created this will be same as 1d above, GFCI will trip reliving both the short circuit and disconnecting the power to the device probably preventing or reducing the damage by chemicals or copper. If no secondary short develops again you depend on the breaker.

Here again the safest alternative will be GFCI and ground probe installed although will not be effective if a secondary short to water is not established. Note that as mentioned above a short from hot to neutral may create a fire as the wires may get hot enough to initiate it.

There is a new device in the market that will replace the breaker and designed for this kind of fault. It is called an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) This device will fulfill the functions of a breaker but while a breaker rely on the heat of the wires created by the short circuit which makes it slow an AFCI detects the arc on the short circuit acting immediately. For full protection under scenario 2 an AFCI in the main panel plus a GFCI in the outlet and a ground probe in the tank will provide for full protection.

Scenario 3: Short circuit from hot to a metal part of a non-submerged device and there is no current to trip the device as the metal body is not grounded:[B/] This is typical of a lighting fixture to whome one of the light bulb wires toches the reflector or the metalic hood or when some of the wiring of external pumps short to the pumps body and the body of the pump is not grounded.

a) No ground Probe and no GFCI installed: As the fault is external to the aquarium the aquarium does not get energized and no effect. If you touch the device depending on how well insulated from ground you are (rubber soles vs bare foot, globes vs bare hands etc) you may just get jolted or may get electrocuted.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: If you are touching the water and touch the device the GFCI will trip even if the short is within the external device. Typical of this fault is when a termial on a lamp in the hood gets shorted to the hood itself via salt creep. you are working in the water while you touch the hood with your arm or shoulder.

c) Ground probe and no GFCI: This is one of the the main reasons why probes shall not be installed unless a GFCI is also installed. The water will be perfectly grounded. If you are working in the water and touch the device you will get badly shocked or electrocuted even is you yourself are electrically insulated by the use of rubber soles or such.

d) Ground Probe and GFCI: GFCI will trip as soon as you touch the body of the device saving you once more.

For this scenario the safest will be 3b and 3d above. To make this a really safe situation: i) Use only devices installed with three prong plugs they usually ground the body using the third prong.
ii) Replace the plug and wire of any device to a three pong plug and connect the green wire to the body of the device. (The metal hood, the body of the ballast, the casing of the pump etc.)
Note that many power heads only use 2 prong plugs, if possible select one with three prongs. (Maxi jets used to have three prong wires and plugs but they were replaced with a lighter insulation wire and two prong plugs. It is still unclear to me why. Cost?, Did not want to potentially ground the water? Only they know)

Scenario 4: Short from hot to neutral or grounded body of an external device:[B/]

Under this scenario for all cases you will be dependant on the breaker. If the current is high but the breaker is slow on acting there might be a fire. The use of an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter instead of a breaker will reduce the fire possibility.

Scenario 5: Short from Neutral to water:[B/] As usually the neutral wire is grounded either at the outside were the wires enter the house or at the main nothing happens unless this neutral grounding is not perfect some small voltage may develop creating the following situation:

a) No GFCI and No Probe: nothing will happen, you may detect small voltage of the water to ground, if you touch the water you may feel a small shock if you are not insulated enough.

b) GFCI but no ground probe: if you touch the water and the voltage is high enough to generate at least 5 milliamps the GFCI will trip.

c) Ground probe but no GFCI: The small voltage may create a permanent small current, this may be enough to start killing the most sensitive critters, (Pods and Snails) and create coral RTN over long term.

d) GFCI and Ground Probe: same as 5b above. If the current is below 5 milliamps it may still create a small current which may affect the tank inhabitants but in a lesser degree given the smaller current level than 5c above.

So in summary overall the safest for the aquarist will be the installation of AFCI, GFCI and Ground Probe. The safest for the inhabitants will be AFCI and GFCI without ground probe. This is the reason why many aquarist do not use ground probes (but will always use GFCIs) specially traveling ones that stay away for extended periods of time. If you have a remote alarm system installed that may page you or send you an E-Mail in case of a fault (Like the aqua controller from Neptune Systems) you shall have no doubts and have your Probe installed with your GFCI's)

Opposite the most dangerous situation is not having at least a GFCI. By the way many states, city or county electrical codes require installation of GFCIs on any location where electrical equipment may be exposed to water like outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, aquariums, spas etc. If this is the case and there is an accident or fire the insurance company MAY NOT PAY. so be warned.

I hope this long explanation may save some of us out there from at least a couple of jolts. By the way it is not smart (Trying to be nice an not saying plainly stupid) to use one-self as a test subject. I had a friend who got a small shock while testing a hood, he kept on shcocking himself trying to find out where the short was! Get a multi tester is you need to do this.

Enjoy and happy reefing!
 
Ever pool is/should be grounded. Research the code and the rebar including a bird cage should have a copper wire running to ground.
 
This is terrible advice And I caution anyone not to follow it. Are you an electrician? Is it better to find out you have faulty equipment via death by electrocution?

Article from an electrical engineer who is also a hobbyist.
https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aquarist-found-dead/

Hobbyist found dead. Electrocuted.
http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/general-discussions/32580-herkie.html

Imo the only good way to use a grounding probe is to plug it in before you stick your hand in the water then to unplug it when you are done otherwise it will trip and shut everything off when you are not home.

Also I agree they are not needed if using gfci correctly
 
Ever pool is/should be grounded. Research the code and the rebar including a bird cage should have a copper wire running to ground.

Yes but there not targeting the water with a probe the rebar is used as a ground for the electrical panel nothing to do with the water. Same way new construction is done the panel must be grounded to the rebar in the foundation.
 
Imo the only good way to use a grounding probe is to plug it in before you stick your hand in the water then to unplug it when you are done otherwise it will trip and shut everything off when you are not home.



Also I agree they are not needed if using gfci correctly


I've never had one trip my system. That's a fine technique if you always remember to do it.

The problem with the GFCI alone is if it goes bad, and it does happen, you are naked without any protection from becoming the ground. The grounding probe does what it's supposed to. Send the current to ground rather than through you.

Do what you want. I don't find electricity anything to mess around with nor would I allow vulnerabilities, especially while mixing electricity with water.

In fact, although expensive, the GFCI breakers are far more reliable. I just installed one on an office tank. They cost about $65.
 
I read through this entire thread and then read your op again. While there has been much debate I'm not sure if your questions have been answered. First lets understand that a surge protector is designed to protect your equipment and a GFCI is designed to protect you and save your life should something go wrong. There have already been some good explanations of what a GFCI does, one even appeared to be a googled answer from a webpage but it was still a good explanation. Simply put your GFCI is designed to measure curent from the hot side of a circuit, the source, and compare it to the curent leaving the circuit via the return side neutral. In a typical split phase residential system the neutral bus will be grounded in the service entrance pannel. Your hot side has a potential then of 120V with respect to the neutral. With that said if your GFCI is working propperly then any difference detected in the source and load impedance should trip the GFCI regardles of whats plugged into the outlet. You should check your GFCI with a tester you can probably find at Home Depot or a local electrical supply outfit. Now you mentioned a buzz with your tank. Is this something you are hearing or feeling when putting your hand in the tank? If your GFCI didnt trip it is either defective OR there is no problem with your wiring or your equipment. Or at least the GFCI isn't detecting a difference in current entering and leaving your circuit. With that said given the fact that we are talking about a fish tank that has electrical devices submerged in the tank water that is isolated from earth ground until you stick your hand in it would be a good idea to cantact an electrician to have everything checked out. Surge protectors and ground prongs are the least of your worries here. If equipment your using was designed with a three prong plug and its missing the ground prong then I wouldnt recomend using it. But its not the source of your concern imo. As far as the surge protector goes I've heard complaints of them tripping GFCI recepticals but have never experienced it myself. As long as yours isn't then there should be no concern. I hope this helps. Please contact a local electrician with your concerns though.
 
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Guys you can think what you want but the proof is in the name. ground fault circuit interrupter. Again I use them all the time. As long as current is flowing along the normal path IE from hot to neutral the breaker wont trip.
 
I think Cuzza has given the best advice so far in regard to improving your setup. I'd like to add that if you do add additional recepticals, use standard (non GFCI) duplex recepticals wired to the load side of the GFCI in your original circuit. Don't wire more than one GFCI on the same circuit. If your goal is to add an additional circuit as Cuzza recomended then do the same thing with the new circuit using one GFCI and standard duplex recepticals. If you have no experience with residential home wiring please contact an electrician. Hope this helps.
 
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