Lyle's 150H in-wall build (with pics)

[WaterHazard]

I got my Apex stuff yesterday. It took me about an hour to get everything set up properly on my network, but once I got it everything set properly it worked flawlessly. I have a feeling I'm going to love this thing!


I'm thinking of how I'm going to mount all this stuff behind a false wall or something to keep all the wires clean. I'm going to need another energy bar and an I/O module to handle the floats. I think I'm going to fully automate water changes with 2 maxi-jet 1200s and 2 float sensors.

1. Apex shuts the return and ATO off
2. 1 min later a maxi in the sump pumps for 3 min to a drain.
3. 2 min later a maxi in the FSW tank pumps for 3 min back to the sump.
4. 2 min later the return and ATO come back online.
5. Repeat twice a day.

Think this will work?

First off, incredible set up. I just started putting some very similar dream plans together...same tank, similar sump, Apex, So on and so on I'd like to start demo this summer. Anyway...

This will work, but you should be careful about using timers vice physical states of the system to move from one segment of the water change to the next. If your pumps are not pumping exactly the same volume per unit time (and they're not - none are perfectly equal in manufacture, or the plumbing may not have matching head losses, or there could be a partial clog, etc.), you will not have the same amount replaced as was removed. It may be insignificant, but magnified if you run it multiple times daily. In the case where you don't replace as much as you drain, your ATO will make up the volume, but will affect your salinity (diluted). In the other case where you replace more than you drain, your water level may increase until you have an overflow...but then you have that nice floor drain that so many envy!

I have an Apex and love it. I spent hours trying to build logic to automatic water changes. No hardware in place, purely theoretical. I used paper and pencil mostly, but also modeled the programming in Microsoft Excel. I didn't want to use timers, but rather I wanted to engineer a robust design that was failsafe and immune to varying pump flow rates. I failed and haven't gotten back to it in over a month.

If anyone has any tips on this type of timer-free design, I'd be all ears.

I actually toyed with the idea of using a BASIC Stamp II to automate the water changes. This would allow much simpler state-setting through code rather than a form of ladder logic. Sure it would require extra hardware and circuit components, but it would be a good excuse to reconnect with a simple microcontroller.

Sorry to ramble. Just be cognizant of the potential for mismatched pumping.

Looking forward to seeing your set up unfold. Good luck!

 

[WaterHazard]

Does an Apex system get hot? I'm planning on putting this behind a door that's basically closing in a corner. I'm going to leave the top and bottom open so it should get plenty of air. Just curious if these things get hot when they're running all the equipment.

I haven't noticed anything significant with mine. I'm sure since you've been using it now you found the same. One piece of advice (from Neptune Systems support): put it on a surge protector. Instructions say use gfci (I did), but should also mention that the EB8 does not have surge protection. My base module was damaged after only two months and repaired under warranty. I'm not aware of any power issues I may have had, but that was the cited cause from the support folks. Play it safe.

 

[WaterHazard]

Ok sorry. One last note and I'm done.

It's only been 2 months, but so far so good. I have my heaters internal temp set to 82 and the ACJr set to turn them on/off based on seasonal temps. The temp reading on both heaters have matched the temp probe of the ACjr and a standard glass thermometer.

BeanAnimal has an interesting article on heaters and controlling them, if you haven't already seen it: http://www.beananimal.com/articles/aquarium-heaters-what-you-need-to-know!.aspx

 

[jlylec]

This will work, but you should be careful about using timers vice physical states of the system to move from one segment of the water change to the next. If your pumps are not pumping exactly the same volume per unit time (and they're not - none are perfectly equal in manufacture, or the plumbing may not have matching head losses, or there could be a partial clog, etc.), you will not have the same amount replaced as was removed. It may be insignificant, but magnified if you run it multiple times daily. In the case where you don't replace as much as you drain, your ATO will make up the volume, but will affect your salinity (diluted). In the other case where you replace more than you drain, your water level may increase until you have an overflow...but then you have that nice floor drain that so many envy!

Thanks WaterHazard! I hope you can learn from some of my mistakes prior to starting your build. Things are going pretty well so far and I've learned a lot from everyone on here and by stumbling through it!

I've had similar feedback on this auto-water change idea and have decided against automating the process with timers or the Apex time functions. I went ahead and bought an Apex I/O break-out box and am going to use the 6 switch spots on there to control:

1. normal low sump level ATO pump on
2. high tank level full shut off
3. high sump level ATO pump off
4. water on floor detector full off

and then twice a weed during scheduled feed cycle a small pump in the sump will pump out dirty SW to the floor drain until normal low sump level ATO switch opens. Wait a minute and then, a small pump in the FSW tank will pump in new FSW water until normal high sump level ATO switch opens. With my set up I'm estimating I can change 20g at a time this way. I also considered running it once a day for a smaller amount of change but am thinking I should keep it as simple as possible. 10% change twice a week should be perfect for consistency and maintaining water quality with little additives.

I THINK this will work but wasn't able to test yet as I had to break down the sump to put in a bubble trap. Hopefully I can test this next week and I'll let you know!

 

[jlylec]

I haven't noticed anything significant with mine. I'm sure since you've been using it now you found the same. One piece of advice (from Neptune Systems support): put it on a surge protector. Instructions say use gfci (I did), but should also mention that the EB8 does not have surge protection. My base module was damaged after only two months and repaired under warranty. I'm not aware of any power issues I may have had, but that was the cited cause from the support folks. Play it safe.

Yeah no heat issues. I shut the Apex down though as I don't need it yet and it seemed to be messing with my home network for some reason. It was working perfectly with the networking settings I programmed in from within the house and from outside the network, but all of sudden I started losing internet connection on the computers in the house which stopped when I powered off the Apex. Weird. I figure I'll tackle that frustration when I need to!

Thanks for the tip on the surge protector. I hadn't heard that before and I certainly don't want to damage those $160 power strips! They are plugged into GFCI outlets, but as you said...better safe than sorry.

 

[jlylec]

BeanAnimal has an interesting article on heaters and controlling them, if you haven't already seen it: http://www.beananimal.com/articles/aquarium-heaters-what-you-need-to-know!.aspx

I hadn't seen this...thanks!

 

[jlylec]

I got my water change system rough plumbed up last night. Should work out like this. RO on top, FSW in the middle and, and RO ATO in the tank at the bottom.

 

[WaterHazard]

It all looks so nice. I do believe I will be heavily copying your setup this summer. I really like it alot. Please continue to post your lessons-learned!

I have a few questions for my curiousity:

-Why Schedule 80 plumbing instead of Schedule 40? It does look nicer, but any functional reason?
-Why the S-trap in the plumbing there? Why not a single 90deg elbow down?
-Can you generally explain how you'll use the tanks and plumbing? I understand basically that it's for top-off and water changes, but why did you set it up like you did?

Again I'm very impressed with your design. I'm excited to see it progress.

 

[jlylec]

-Why Schedule 80 plumbing instead of Schedule 40?

The Schedule 80 is a bit sturdier and supports itself better. It didn't cost TOO much more and I liked the look after seeing others use it. I'm a bit anal with this being tidy and clean looking so I went with it! I don't think it really offers much of a benefit over Sch40 other than being sturdier. I only tied my plumbing down in a few spots with plastic straps and it feels like I could climb on it.

-Why the S-trap in the plumbing there? Why not a single 90deg elbow down?

That's there because of the way I plan on using gravity and the valves...see below.

-Can you generally explain how you'll use the tanks and plumbing? I understand basically that it's for top-off and water changes, but why did you set it up like you did?

For the purposes of this explanation consider the valves top to bottom as A, B, and C.

1. RO/DI fills the top tank with RO water automatically using a float valve in the tank and an auto-shut-off valve on the RO/DI unit. At any given time I'll have nearly 30g of RO in that tank.
2. The middle tank (bottom white one) is for fresh salt water (FSW). It will have a heater, Koralia for mixing, and a Maxi1200 for water changing. This is a 30g tank as well.
3. The bottom tank is a 30g glass tank that I used to use as a sump in an older system. It will have a Koralia for mixing kalk or whatever, and a Maxi1200 for ATO.
4. To fill the FSW tank I open valves A and B and keep C closed. This is where the trap comes in the plumbing. The trap needs to be higher than the water line in the FSW tank and by making it an S it will ensure no RO water spills over into the bottom ATO tank.
5. To fill the ATO tank I only open valve A. Filling these tanks will be the only manual part to the system. I'm hoping I can get away with only doing this 2-3 times a month as I travel somewhat frequently.
7. If I need FSW outside of the main system I can put a bucket under valve C and open that valve with A and B closed.
8. For RO in a bucket I'm probably going to replace the final down-pipe into the ATO tank with a flexible tube I can put in a bucket or just hang into the ATO tank.
9. Under normal operation all valves are closed. The Apex controller will shut off the return and skimmer twice a day (at least) for auto-feeding. Once or twice a week, during one of these scheduled "off" periods, the Apex will turn on a Maxi1200 in the sump return section that is dedicated to pumping dirty water directly into the floor drain. This will run until a float valve in that section drops to a minimum point. About one minute later a separate Maxi1200 in the FSW tank will come on and run until another float valve set at the max water line normally realized when the return pump is off is tripped. A few minutes later the return and skimmer will come back on. I'm assuming this whole process will take no more than 10min but it's all just in my mind for now! This will (theoretically) change about 15-20 gallons of water automatically. Hopefully I can test this out in the next couple weeks.
7. The ATO will operate with it's own float valve like most systems are set up. Float drops and the pump in the tank tops it off. In my nano the ATO will run for 1-2 seconds, off for 2 seconds, run again and repeat like 4-5x. In this system the float will be in the return section and the ATO water will be pumped into the fuge section so I'm hoping by the time the water filling catches up with the float it will overfill just enough to not turn the pump on and off over and over again for each top-off.

Does this all make sense? I've thought about it so much I know what I'm trying to say but I don't always explain things very clearly!

Again I'm very impressed with your design. I'm excited to see it progress.

Thanks so much...I really appreciate it. The whole thing has turned into a lot more work than I thought it would be, but I love stuff like this so it's not a big deal to me. My daughter is dying to see some actual fish though!

 

[WaterHazard]

Nice. I'm all for simplifying the chores. And neatness counts in my world too, even when I know it doesn't matter. You should see any of my electrical before I cover it with Sheetrock.

Fluid mechanics aren't always intuitive, so maybe I'm off base here, but I'm thinking with valves A and B open, you might get some flow into the ATO tank, even with the trap. I'm not sure. I'd have to mock it up. Have you tried this out? Just curious.

Where did you get the tanks? I know they can be surprisingly expensive. Just wondering if you found a deal. They look pretty nice, especially plumbed in with that schedule 80.

 

[Stickboy97]

Great build thread, subscribed! I'll be building a 210 or larger this summer and I think I'll copy a lot of your ideas!

! question on your sump, why have the return in the middle? Why not after your water goes through the fuge? in other words, drain, fuge, return.
thanks
Shane

 

[jlylec]

Nice. I'm all for simplifying the chores. And neatness counts in my world too, even when I know it doesn't matter. You should see any of my electrical before I cover it with Sheetrock.

Fluid mechanics aren't always intuitive, so maybe I'm off base here, but I'm thinking with valves A and B open, you might get some flow into the ATO tank, even with the trap. I'm not sure. I'd have to mock it up. Have you tried this out? Just curious.

Where did you get the tanks? I know they can be surprisingly expensive. Just wondering if you found a deal. They look pretty nice, especially plumbed in with that schedule 80.

I haven't tested that plumbing yet so maybe you're right. If so ill have to throw another valve in the mix!

I got the tanks from Northern Tool company. Just search for "30 gallon" and they will be like 5-6 down the results page. They were like 100/ea but are much better than the trashcans. You can see water level through them and they're MUCH easier to plumb into the system.

 

[jlylec]

Great build thread, subscribed! I'll be building a 210 or larger this summer and I think I'll copy a lot of your ideas!

! question on your sump, why have the return in the middle? Why not after your water goes through the fuge? in other words, drain, fuge, return.
thanks
Shane

I did a lot of research on the sump and the general consensus for the best design is what I went with. It allows you to T the return to a valved line into the fuge so you can dial the flow way down. You shouldn't have much flow through the fuge. Plus it will allow any pods growing in the fuge to spill into the return section and be sucked up into the DT for food. Seems to work great in my tests.

 

[jlylec]

So while I wait for my rock to cook and my final bits of parts to come in, I'm really struggling with the design of the water change station. I can't decide if I should have a spigot out of the FSW tank on the bottom or just pump FSW into a bucket if I need it someplace other than directly in the sump during a change. How often do those of you with water change systems like this need/use access to the water OTHER than it going straight into the sump for ATO or water change?

 

[jlylec]

going this way with the plumbing on these tanks. using uniseals for the plumbing and 3/4" spigots for the pre-drilled drain openings in the tanks.

 

[jlylec]

I think I'm finally done with all the plumbing. My spigots for the RO and FSW tanks are due in tomorrow and then I can start filling everything up and organizing the wires. Finally.

 

[jlylec]

Final leak test done on everything now. Rock doesn't stink anymore so I'll probably start the aquascaping next week. I bought 2 small bags of sand...one Fiji Pink, and one Bermuda Pink to see which I like better. Hopefully my lights will ship on the 22nd. That's it.

 

[jlylec]

So no interesting updates really. I realized that I've posted so many similar pics after making just minor tweaks or additions and I'm probably losing interest out there! At this point I'm filling everything with RO/DI and it's taking longer than it should because I went too far into the build and plumbed all the RO/DI to the water change station already so I can only make 30gal at a time before I have to move that into the tank so I can make more. I would just run a line directly to the tank, but I used up all the 1/4" line I had...stupid! I should be all full tonight though and then circulate the water for 24hrs to triple check for leaks and then I'm adding salt and then doing the aquascaping. I did get some HDPE sheet and PVD rod so I can drill and peg all of the rock in place. I'm a little nervous about that undertaking and really worried that the rockwork doesn't work out like I have it in my head. We'll see. Any suggestions on this whole process? My plan is to add the salt once nothing is leaking...get that to perfect salinity and temp...add the rock on the HDPE and then the sand on top of that. I know it's going to cause a sand storm that will take days to settle, but I don't want the rock to sit out in the air for more than a couple hours and I don't have anything to hold nearly 200gal of FSW to add right away after putting the rock and sand in place. So this is where I am.

My current issues are:
1. FSW tank spigot is leaking about a 1/2 cup a day. It's just cheap and was a really bad decision on my part. I need spigots that I can attach hose to and won't leak. Unfortunately the only ones I've found are like $50/ea. The spigots I got were $3!
2. I'm having network problems. My Apex works perfectly. I can control it when I'm home over my computer or iphone with Aquanotes. But for some reason when I activate the Apex it locks up the internet and all other network activity at the house. When I unplug the Apex and restart the router and modem the internet works fine again. I'm swapping the modem and probably the router. I think the router is the issue and all the restarts and dicking around with the modem seems to have wrecked it. I can't figure out what's going on here. It's very frustrating!
3. Still no lights. Premium Aquatics told me earlier in the week that they should still be in on the 22nd. Of course my fingers are crossed!

 

[T Diddy]

jlylec, your system is so neat and clean...makes me want to puke :hmm4:

Anyway, it looks awesome and I can't wait to see it all running.

Great Job! :beer:

 

[jlylec]

jlylec, your system is so neat and clean...makes me want to puke :hmm4:

Anyway, it looks awesome and I can't wait to see it all running.

Great Job! :beer:

thanks man...i really appreciate it! i've been delayed by so many different things i've had time to tweak everything to get it neat. hopefully i can keep it clean once i'm up and running!