Lympho?

[Rea17]

Hey everyone

Yesterday I picked up some fish from a guy on my local reefing forum. He downgraded from a 180 to a 100 and has had these tangs packed into the 100 for the past month. He lives a couple of hours away so we met halfway and exchanged a bucket. Right when I saw them I wasn't happy. He had 4 decent sized tangs (purple, desjardini, sohal, powder blue) in 1 bucket, not much water, on a warm day in a long car ride. Oxygen in the water was obviously very low. The powder blue was on his side, sohal gasping at the surface, and the other two seemed fine. I got them home as soon as I could and started acclimation to quarantine immediately. They all perked up a minute after the drip started.

Anyway, these fish were advertised as "healthy," but upon getting them in their quarantine tank, I see the following:

-Purple and sailfin have some lateral line erosion - sailfin pretty minor

-Sailfin, purple, and pbt appear to have some lympho on pectoral/pelvic fins

-Pbt has a cloudy eye - I think he got it in the eye from one of the other fish in the bucket. Looks a little better today, crossing my fingers it clears up on it's own

-Sohal looks great for the time being

All fish are eating great, but I'm a little concerned about the lympho as I've never encountered it personally before. I've read a lot of contradicting opinions on how contagious it is. Should I attempt to remove the cysts right now, as they are just on the fins? Should I let them clear up on their own? I've attached a couple of pictures - sorry for the poor quality. The quarantine that the fish are currently in is 150g "soft quarantine" with rock/etc. I have no problem removing the rock to fallow it and treating in this tank if necessary. Any input is really appreciated.







The purple is extremely active and the glass is a little dirty, so it's really hard to get a decent picture of him. This one is a little blurry, but you can see the little lump on his pectoral fin:

 

[HumbleFish]

Whether or not Lympho is contagious is debatable. But the best way to kick it is excellent water quality and good nutrition. This is also conicidentally probably your best bet for dealing with the HLLE. So, I would start soaking their food in Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-chem, etc. Omega 3 fish oil would be another good choice - you never see Lympho or HLLE on any of Paul B's fish.

 

[Rea17]

Yup, my thoughts exactly. I'm assuming this condition was caused by the stress of being confined in a small tank, water quality, and probably poor diet as well. They are all eating very well, so I don't think getting vitamins into them is going to be that challenging. Thanks Humble

 

[HumbleFish]

Yup, my thoughts exactly. I'm assuming this condition was caused by the stress of being confined in a small tank, water quality, and probably poor diet as well. They are all eating very well, so I don't think getting vitamins into them is going to be that challenging. Thanks Humble

Since you have evidence that the previous owner didn't take very good care of these fish; it's also a safe bet he never QT'd any of them either. What do you think the odds are of having 4 tangs and not one of them having Crypto? Especially a Powder Blue?

Just my opinion; but I would prophylactically treat all these fish with copper or CP for external parasites. Even if you don't see symptoms.

 

[Rea17]

Since you suspect the previous owner didn't take very good care of them; it's also a safe bet he never QT'd any of his fish. What do you think the odds are of having 4 tangs and not one of them having Crypto? Especially a Powder Blue?

Just my opinion; but I would prophylactically treat all these fish with copper or CP for external parasites. Even if you don't see symptoms.

I am already planning to. I prophylactically treat every fish that goes into my DT. I just wanted to get them comfortable and make sure they were eating first.

 

[Rea17]

Ok, so for the most part the fish are still doing very well. My issue now is the PBT has developed a lump right above his mouth. When I got him there was a rub mark there, a product from being caught or transport I had assumed. It looked as though he had run into something. Anyway, did the lympho attack this spot because it was an open sore and vulnerable, or was it probably already developing? I've read that surgery can make things worse because it can spread the virus, but the fact that it is on his mouth concerns me. If it grows and he stops eating, I'll have no choice. Let me know what you guys think...

 

[HumbleFish]

Lympho can become a problem if it covers their mouth, gills, eyes, etc. It can even affect internal organs, get behind the eyes, etc. (see links below). That being said, I wouldn't try to remove it off his mouth surgically until it got a lot worse.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa181

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277486/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277486/pdf/compmed00044-0048.pdf

 

[Rea17]

Thanks for those references Humble. I guess my main question now is... will these fish always carry the virus? Or do they become immune to it once they shed the visible growths? That was one thing I didn't see in the article.

 

[HumbleFish]

Thanks for those references Humble. I guess my main question now is... will these fish always carry the virus? Or do they become immune to it once they shed the visible growths? That was one thing I didn't see in the article.

Back when I was a kid, my dad had a Queen Angel w/Lympho. It would flare up every 2-3 years, and he was very "hands on" about removing it. He'd plop that fish down on a cutting board, cut off all the Lympho with a razor blade, and then even put some mercurochrome on it's fins for good measure. I know, crazy. :wildone:

Anyways, this went on for like 10 years. At some point after that, the fish got Lympho really bad all over it's mouth & gills, and he couldn't save it. But it was a lot worse than what I'm seeing on your PBT. So yeah, I'm pretty sure they carry the virus for life.

My PBT has very small flare ups from time to time, and I can tell it bothers her a little when she swims. But she's been dealing with it just fine for the past 3 or so years now.

 

[Rea17]

I'm worried about contamination if I add these fish to my display down the road, not sure how to handle it if they carry it for life. :/

I've read about people going as far as culling fish that have it in QT (so as not to introduce the virus to the DT), or others saying "oh that's just lympho, good water/nutrition it'll go away on it's own no big deal." I'm trying to get a feel for how serious this is, and if there are any precautions I can take. I have some really special and IMO irreplaceable fish in my DT that I'm not willing to risk.

 

[HumbleFish]

I'm worried about contamination if I add these fish to my display down the road, not sure how to handle it if they carry it for life. :/

FWIW, my PBT that has Lympho is in a DT with a Blonde Naso, various dwarf angels, etc. and none of them have ever displayed symptoms. I'm about to buy a Moorish Idol that will eventually go in with these same fish, and the fact that I know my PBT has Lympho doesn't deter me.

I'm not saying it's definitely not contagious... it's just not that big of a deal if it is.

 

[Rea17]

FWIW, my PBT that has Lympho is in a DT with a Blonde Naso, various dwarf angels, etc. and none of them have ever displayed symptoms. I'm about to buy a Moorish Idol that will eventually go in with these same fish, and the fact that I know my PBT has Lympho doesn't deter me.

I'm not saying it's definitely not contagious... it's just not that big of a deal if it is.

Well, if these infected cells burst and release more of the virus - that would make it quite contagious to any fish with a compromised immune system. I am especially inclined to think that if 3 out of the 4 fish I got out of this tank are visibly infected. For all know the Sohal has it too, but internally.

So, knowing that your PBT has lympho, would you think twice about adding a large angel, as they seem particularly susceptible to it? I have a magnificent XL Achilles tang and a baby Navarchus angel that I would be most worried about contracting something like this. I feed well and keep my water conditions pristine, but I don't like the idea of relying on that to keep a sickness at bay. It seems an awful lot like what some people still recommend for battling ich...

 

[HumbleFish]

Well, if these infected cells burst and release more of the virus - that would make it quite contagious to any fish with a compromised immune system. I am especially inclined to think that if 3 out of the 4 fish I got out of this tank are visibly infected. For all know the Sohal has it too, but internally.

So, knowing that your PBT has lympho, would you think twice about adding a large angel, as they seem particularly susceptible to it? I have a magnificent XL Achilles tang and a baby Navarchus angel that I would be most worried about contracting something like this. I feed well and keep my water conditions pristine, but I don't like the idea of relying on that to keep a sickness at bay. It seems an awful lot like what some people still recommend for battling ich...

Well, going back to that Queen Angel my dad had - for most of it's life it was housed in a 400 gal with an Achilles, a Scribbled Angel, a Annularis, a Blueface, and various butterflies (amongst other fish). I still don't know how he got all that to work. But the only other fish I ever saw w/Lympho (10+ years) was the Scribbled - and it was only once or twice. The Scribbled did eventually get HLLE really bad, but I don't know if those two ailments are in any way related.

Personally, I would do it. But I can also understand you're not wanting to risk it. What would you do with those 4 tangs instead? Wish I lived closer and had a bigger tank!

 

[Rea17]

Well, going back to that Queen Angel my dad had - for most of it's life it was housed in a 400 gal with an Achilles, a Scribbled Angel, a Annularis, a Blueface, and various butterflies (amongst other fish). I still don't know how he got all that to work. But the only other fish I ever saw w/Lympho (10+ years) was the Scribbled - and it was only once or twice. The Scribbled did eventually get HLLE really bad, but I don't know if those two ailments are in any way related.

Personally, I would do it. But I can also understand you're not wanting to risk it. What would you do with those 4 tangs instead? Wish I lived closer and had a bigger tank!

Thank you for the reassurance. It is a little comforting to know that the queen didn't pass it around too much. I really want to keep these guys and make it work, they are some outstanding specimens despite the blemishes. The PT is 7" and an orange tail, and the sohal is just 6" but has amazing color for his size. FWIW, two of these guys have HLLE as well (going back to the scribbled), both are supposed to be caused by stress, diet, water quality, etc.

I welcome anyone to chime in who has ANY experience with Lymphocystis. Are any fish who previously had it residing in your DT? Do they still exhibit symptoms? Is it something you consider to be "a big deal?"