Maintaining Copepods for Mandarin...

[90GalFOWLR]

So I was ill-advised and made an impulse purchase a few weeks ago and got a mandarin goby. He is very cool and I hope to have him for a long time. I realize that feeding him isnt as easy as say.... a clown and thats why I'm asking this.

I read an article on culturing pods in a 10 gal. tank with air/phytoplankton. My question is, if, when I feed my tank I feed some phytoplankton like "phytofeast" (which I have for my corals), will my main tank itself culture and maintain a copepod level suitable for the mandarin?

Is there another way to do it in the main tank? I swear I remember an article about doing something with rocks and frozen shrimp but I cannot find that anymore.

I am ready/willing to do a culture tank, but I would love to have the tank maintain what it needs in it if I can.

 

[jmann]

Another way is a refug with lots a macro algae loaded with pods that make their way to the main tank, as long as you don't have any wrasses or fish that well scour the reef for the pods faster then the mandarin can.

 

[returnofsid]

A fuge will work wonders, as a safe place for pods to reproduce. I wouldn't recommend adding phyto to your system though, unless it's in very small amounts. If your tank isn't drilled, and you don't wanna mess with a HOB overflow, try a CPR Aquafuge. They work great and have the added benefit of being gravity fed, so critters don't have to go through a pump to get to your display. Although, I think most critters live through the impeller journey anyway.

Culturing pods, in a separate container, with phyto also works very well. It's then easy to add Chaeto, to your culture tank. Every few days, take Chaeto out of culture tank, put it in fuge, or display, swap it out a few days later.

A pod rock pile, in your display is also a great idea. It doesn't have to be large...a fist size pile of rubble, that fish can't fit into. Pods will have a place to hide and reproduce. A fuge, with Chaeto would be much more effective than this though.

Keep Wrasses, Grammas, Dottybacks, and other known pod devourers to a minimum. In a 230 gallon tank, I'd say you probably have plenty of rock to keep a sustainable pod population going, even if you currently have a wrasse or two.

 

[CLINTOS]

all of the above will work I personaly just use rock rubble,75lbs L.R,no skimmer,no refuge on my 90G but I also have very few predator's besides 2 chromis's and 1 mandarin

for my second mandarin I'll get rid of my chromis's and
as soon as my phytoplankton station is up and running I'll be dosing alot of phytoplankton to DT to keep a larger pod population alive and fed along with culturing Nitokra lacustris as back up

 

[KarlBob]

I'm not sure that getting rid of the 2 chromis will make that much difference to the mandarins, CLINTOS. While chromis may eat the occasional pod, I've never seen them actively hunt for pods the way wrasses do. From what I've read, keeping 2 mandarins in a 90 gallon tank seems risky even without competition.

90GalFOWLR, your tank is generally considered big enough for a mandarin, but the usual advice is to wait at least 6 months before adding it, to give the pods time to multiply. Since you've added the mandarin early, you might want to supplement the pods occasionally. You can order live copepods and amphipods from several on-line vendors, or your LFS may stock some.

 

[mhltcob]

I agree that a refugium will be a big asset to the tank. Alot of the mandarins I have had will adjust to frozen food with time. I use gamma mysis, bloodworms, glassworms, and pacifica krill. At first I sometimes feed enriched adult brine shrimp and live mysis shrimp in which I "shock" in cold saltwater before feeding. If you want info on culturing copepods you may want to speak with Dennis Tagrin of DT's. They culture them with very simple methods - bare tanks with no aeration or heating, fed diatoms, with a flourescent light.

 

[CLINTOS]

I heard that some pods that are being sold might happen to be from cooler climates which I think would be fine as a daily dose but not to increase pod population within the display I heard Nitokra lacustris are from tropical water's I'm not 100% on that but that is the type of copepods I decided to culture in the near future

 

[JHemdal]

Remeber that the big problem with refugiums is that in terms of biomass, since there is no additional food input, the copepod production is limited. Think of the reports where a mandarin was able to hunt down and eat all of the pods in a 100 gallon tank - now do you think that a 20 gallon refugium, without additional energy input, is going to produce enough food for one?

I raise copepods in tanks, feeding them Isochrysis, but I have to keep starting new tanks every few weeks/months, as the older cultures become less productive.


Jay

 

[CLINTOS]

What kind of copepod do you use?

 

[JohnM99]

JHemdal

I had not the good fortune to find your blog until I stumbled upon this thread - (just started reading it, and love your Tang Police article). I have now bookmarked it and look forward to more reading through it.

May I ask- can you to summarize what you do to raise copepods, and how this might be done at home? Or, point us to a reference? Also, what do you advise regard obtaining a starting source of copepods - can you rely on them hitchhiking into your system, or should you purchase them directly?

I have a 45 g fuge and am not sure sometimes how many pods I am raising - I have not put any attention to it specifically, and without my reading glasses, I just assume they are there and I haven't seen them. But, since 90GalFOWLR has raised this question, I think others may be interested as well.

Many thanks.

 

[JHemdal]

We're raising Tisbe and Acartia for some larval fish rearing programs, you'll probably want to use something larger for mandarins, perhaps Tigriopus?

We got one good culture of unknown copepods started by collecting adults from the glass of a display aquarium, then moved them to lighted tubs to which we add the Isochrysis cultures. Our Tisbe culture got over-run by Acartia I think (in the same room).

We remove the copepods using the "differential" method. We have a series of plankton sieves. Depending on what size we want to remove from the culture, we use different mesh sizes. For example, if we want larger nauplii, we first filter the culture with a 180 mesh, and return the adults capture back to the culture. We then might filter it through a 80 mesh to remove the very small naups and feces.

We've only been doing this since spring, and we really don't have a good handle on culture lifespan, contaminants, etc. We know that we have to keep rotifers away, and brine shrimp cysts can get into the cultures - not sure how (unlcean nets or something). We've also had problems with the algae in the copepod cultures changing from Iso to something else (probably Nannochloropsis).

We grow the Iso in inverted two liter pop bottles, although we are increasing our scale - I ordered a series of five gallon vessels from Florida Aqua Farms this week.

Jay

 

[CLINTOS]

Do you have any info on tigger pods because what I have been getting is that they are subtropical/tropical but i'm not 100% on this I know they are stored in the fridge does this mean they will ultimately die @ 78F temp even know they have lot's of predator free zone's with lot's of food?

Another person says they grow and multiply inside the average tank as long as food was provided for them while another say's they will survive for awhile and no matter what they will eventually die

I'm hoping to culture something that will survive the long haul inside the reef aquarium with proper feeding and predator free zones with supplemental side culture addition a few time's a week

it will be for mandarin's

 

[JohnM99]

Are these the ones?
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=rm-tp006

I was wondering the same - the occur up and down the Pacific Coast from Baja to Alaska - I think they are found in tidepools, and that would suggest they might have quite a wide tolerance of salinity and temperature - the water on the coast is around 6 or 8 deg. C up to over 30 in pools as the tide goes out.

I would guess they are not optimally suited to reef aquarium temps - but not sure - ??

 

[CLINTOS]

Yep thou's are the ones I'm hoping to culture for mandarins I heard the same thing about them being found in a wide range of temp's

I'm going to try to see if I can culture them using live phytoplankton in the near future and room temp


This article say its possible

http://www.copepodgeek.com/index.php/handbooks/Copepod-Culture-Handbook-slated-for-rework.html



I'm curious if I can just buy a bottle of tiggerpods and culture or if a special culture needs to be bought?

 

[KarlBob]

I've also heard mixed results about Tigger Pods. Some people point out that Tigriopus are found in a variety of water temperatures. Others have stated that the area where Tigger Pods are bottled for sale is temperate, and that even if other populations live in warm water, those particular Tigriopus are not adapted to reef tank temperatures (around 80F).

 

[CLINTOS]

I'm wondering if there is a difference between Tigriopus Japonicus and tigriopus californicus spelling might be a off a little

from what I hear mandarins definitely eat them but having something survive for a few days or hour's in display tank like some types of snail's is kind of pointless unless a person is rich

every bottle I've seen there might be a few hundred and not 4000 tiggerpods in a bottle plus don't copepods empty their stomach every few hours or so if so how can they be nutritional imo if kept in the fridge with no food for a month and a person would only use them once and a while as food

 

[CLINTOS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15737279#post15737279 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KarlBob
I've also heard mixed results about Tigger Pods. Some people point out that Tigriopus are found in a variety of water temperatures. Others have stated that the area where Tigger Pods are bottled for sale is temperate, and that even if other populations live in warm water, those particular Tigriopus are not adapted to reef tank temperatures (around 80F).

That's kind of why I'm leaning towards Nitokra lacustris in which I was told they are tropical and easy to culture while tiggerpods might not survive 80F for very long making a person potentially having to always replace them

 

[stealle]

I wouldn't mess with the tigger pods. I read something while back that they may be cannibalistic toward other copepods that are normally in reef tanks. Besides, they just don't naturally occur in most reef tanks. I think it would be more trouble than its worth. The harpacticoid copepods are the common copepods found in our reef tanks and are commonly consumed by mandarins. Copepods do not need to be "gut loaded" like brine shrimp to be nutritious, but they do need to be fed to live and breed. They only have a life span of a couple months and they are highly nutritious throughout the life span.

Just try to increase the copepod population that naturally occurs in reef tanks. You should have copepods from your live rock. If not, you can replentish their population with www.dtplankton.com/copepods.html or www.livecopepods.com . Yes, a 20 gallon refugium will help with a 100 gallon display. It creates a breeding ground for copepods that constantly supply the display. The copepods population can never be "wiped out" since they can breed without predatation.

You are best off with a refugium with lots of LR rubble and cheato. Also, a few piles of LR rubble in the display. Feed the refugium/copepods some DTs phytoplankton about 2 times per week.

 

[stealle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738004#post15738004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CLINTOS
That's kind of why I'm leaning towards Nitokra lacustris in which I was told they are tropical and easy to culture while tiggerpods might not survive 80F for very long making a person potentially having to always replace them

Yes, these Nitokra lacustris are herpacticoid copepods

 

["Umm fish?"]

Tiggers are easy to culture. I kept a continuous culture of them for a couple of years in a couple of unaerated tupperware containers on a counter where they would sometimes get afternoon sunlight. The heat swings never phased them a bit. They will eat phyto once it's died, but it's much easier to use crushed fish food. What they don't like is salinity swings, but as long as you top them up often they are fine.