I'm currently planning a rimless 24 by 24 by 20 semi cube (50 gallons) with a shallow sand bed and around a 20 gallon sump with a refugium growing chaeto. Would that be sufficient for providing a mandarin with enough pods? If so, how long would I wait before introducing the mandarin? 6 months? A year? Thanks so much!
Mandarin in a 50 gallon?
- Thread starter Leanan
- Start date
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
possibly, but it depends on a lot of factors.
first, i would suggest a year as the wait time, to allow time for cycles and blooms to happen and fade away, and ecosystems and small critters to get established.
then i would make sure there are no direct competitors for food, such as wrasse or other pod munchers.
i would also consider stocking and cultivating pods and phyto.
i would also *absolutely* be feeding the dragonet in a supplemental manner with all sorts of other foods, live foods such as black worms, white worms, and newly ahtched baby brine shrimp, as well as frozen foods like Nutramar Ova (if you can get it), frozen cyclop-eeze, and capelin fish roe.
50 is less than ideal for a dragonet, but if you're dedicated to supplemental feeding, and provide the proper environment with no direct competition for food, you could probably pull it off. the key is going to be your sump and fuge, because no matter how much you supplement, they still need to be able to forage all day and all night successfully.
one other thing to consider is your experience. i don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, but the more experienced the aquarist, the easier it will be to spot problems, make corrections, and ultimately successfully keep this type of fish.
my only real concern is the footprint of the tank. many of the copepods they feed on are benthic, and having more surface area of sand for them to replicate can be helpful. i always advise new people to dragonets to target 75 gallons per fish. with a larger than average amount of live rock both in the display and in the sump. a highly productive fuge can hedge your bets though.
finally, make sure you take the time to locate a healthy specimen. they should be actively roaming around and feeding when you observe them. they should also not have a concave stomach, and you should also watch out for other areas of the body being sunken.
here is my list of standard advice and reading for anyone considering keeping one of these beauties:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2367532
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2363996
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2374330
under the wrong conditions, these fish truly are cut flowers. however with some dedication and special treatment, they can do quite well.
first, i would suggest a year as the wait time, to allow time for cycles and blooms to happen and fade away, and ecosystems and small critters to get established.
then i would make sure there are no direct competitors for food, such as wrasse or other pod munchers.
i would also consider stocking and cultivating pods and phyto.
i would also *absolutely* be feeding the dragonet in a supplemental manner with all sorts of other foods, live foods such as black worms, white worms, and newly ahtched baby brine shrimp, as well as frozen foods like Nutramar Ova (if you can get it), frozen cyclop-eeze, and capelin fish roe.
50 is less than ideal for a dragonet, but if you're dedicated to supplemental feeding, and provide the proper environment with no direct competition for food, you could probably pull it off. the key is going to be your sump and fuge, because no matter how much you supplement, they still need to be able to forage all day and all night successfully.
one other thing to consider is your experience. i don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, but the more experienced the aquarist, the easier it will be to spot problems, make corrections, and ultimately successfully keep this type of fish.
my only real concern is the footprint of the tank. many of the copepods they feed on are benthic, and having more surface area of sand for them to replicate can be helpful. i always advise new people to dragonets to target 75 gallons per fish. with a larger than average amount of live rock both in the display and in the sump. a highly productive fuge can hedge your bets though.
finally, make sure you take the time to locate a healthy specimen. they should be actively roaming around and feeding when you observe them. they should also not have a concave stomach, and you should also watch out for other areas of the body being sunken.
here is my list of standard advice and reading for anyone considering keeping one of these beauties:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2367532
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2363996
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2374330
under the wrong conditions, these fish truly are cut flowers. however with some dedication and special treatment, they can do quite well.
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
these guys often come in malnourished, and in rough shape.
sadly cyanide capture and even small spear guns are still common capture methods with these species. the cyanide capture ones often do not eat ever, and the ones caught with spear guns can show paralysis in the rear regions. so be aware when watching the fish at the store.
here is how my girly came to me:
note how skinny she is.
now you can see her a few months later, with good pod populations and supplemental feeding:
and here she is about 3 months ago, fat and happy:
hands down my favorite fish in my tank.
sadly cyanide capture and even small spear guns are still common capture methods with these species. the cyanide capture ones often do not eat ever, and the ones caught with spear guns can show paralysis in the rear regions. so be aware when watching the fish at the store.
here is how my girly came to me:
note how skinny she is.
now you can see her a few months later, with good pod populations and supplemental feeding:
and here she is about 3 months ago, fat and happy:
hands down my favorite fish in my tank.
That's awesome, thank you so much for the detailed response. It sounds like if I do decide to pull the trigger on the mandarin it would be the last addition to the tank. My other stocking ideas are a couple of clowns (not sure on what kind yet), a royal gramma, a bicolor blenny and maybe an orchid dottyback. I'm trying to 1) not overstock the tank, 2) stick to peaceful fish, 3) avoid any jumpers since it'll be a rimless tank with no cover (I know all fish can jump if spooked, I just want to minimize the risk), and 4) stick with smaller fish that won't outgrow the tank. I keep coming up with a new fish that I'd like but then ruling it out for one of the above reasons! Would any of those fish be competitors for pods? Any suggestions on other fish that would work for me?
I'd planned on cultivating pods in the fuge, but I have a silly question - how do they get to the tank? Would I use a turkey baster to snatch some up and manually transfer them to the DT?
I've kept freshwater tanks for years but this will be my first saltwater tank, so that was another reason I'd want to wait and gain some experience before introducing a mandarin. No offense taken! Thanks again for the info, and your mandarin looks lovely
They are such gorgeous fish!
I'd planned on cultivating pods in the fuge, but I have a silly question - how do they get to the tank? Would I use a turkey baster to snatch some up and manually transfer them to the DT?
I've kept freshwater tanks for years but this will be my first saltwater tank, so that was another reason I'd want to wait and gain some experience before introducing a mandarin. No offense taken! Thanks again for the info, and your mandarin looks lovely
They are such gorgeous fish!
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
thank you
i'm not sure about the gramma or the dottyback, i've never kept either of them.
my mandy shares her space well with a pair of percula clowns, a yellow tang (bad purcahse decision when i was new to the hobby), a lawnmower blenny, and a carpenter's flasher wrasse.
my clowns tend to hang out near the top of the tank, and i've never actually seen them go for any pods. it could be that i'm not watching closely enough, or that they're simply not interested. oddly their favorite food seems to be pellets or frozen cyclop-eeze, and they will beg without shame any time i walk near the tank. my blenny will go after frozen or other prepared foods with vigor, he's another one i've never observed eating pods, but again it could just be that i haven't seen it. my hunch is that most benthic copepods would probably be too small to arouse his interest, but that's just a guess.
as far as other fish, you've got some good choices. there are plenty of small gobies that could make good tank mates, and plenty of other smaller fish. i would stay away from tangs (obviously), and damsels for sure.
getting the pods in to the DT from the fuge can happen on its own. i just don't run a sponge or prefilter on my return pump, and i don't run a filter sock on my overflow. so everything more or less has open access to the cycle of the water column.
culturing pods and phyto plankton in external vessels works well too. i used some old 2 liter bottles for my phyto, and some of those large pretzel jugs from CostCo for my pods. then i just sat them up in the window of my spare bedroom to get some light. you don't have to culture pods and phyto, but it is kind of fun to do, and can help you hedge your bets as to the food sources.
the more you stack the deck in your favor with these types of fish, or any specialized eaters, the better off you will be in the long run. i've heard some people who keep freshwater and saltwater compare the dragonets to Dario darios, with their propensity to hunt and peck for live food, while tending to ignore, or be indifferent to prepared foods.
you can successfully get dragonets on to prepared foods in many cases, even sometimes pellets, but the difficulty with making that their primary food source is the way they tend to graze.
rather than eating a few large meals per day, these guys need to forage constantly. they have short digestive tracks, and will pick at the rocks and sand every moment they're awake. so i treat any prepared or frozen food as a supplement.
that's where the Paul B style feeder can come in handy, as you can see in the second picture there. the netting on tops helps to slowly release the baby brine shrimp inside, so that they can be picked at over the course of a few hours.
here is a video i took of her eating:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fl_hnnvgbWo?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
you're off to a great start for getting a mandy, because you're asking the right questions.
the one thing i will say in general about the jumpers, is that all fish will jump if they feel threatened. i ran open top for quite a few months, but sadly lost one of my original clown fish pair when he decided to jump out. i am guessing he was scared at some point when i was away and made the leap.
glad i could help. i love seeing people successfully keeping these fish, in my opinion they are hands down some of the most gorgeous fish in the sea, and it always makes me happy to see fat, healthy specimens.
i'm not sure about the gramma or the dottyback, i've never kept either of them.
my mandy shares her space well with a pair of percula clowns, a yellow tang (bad purcahse decision when i was new to the hobby), a lawnmower blenny, and a carpenter's flasher wrasse.
my clowns tend to hang out near the top of the tank, and i've never actually seen them go for any pods. it could be that i'm not watching closely enough, or that they're simply not interested. oddly their favorite food seems to be pellets or frozen cyclop-eeze, and they will beg without shame any time i walk near the tank. my blenny will go after frozen or other prepared foods with vigor, he's another one i've never observed eating pods, but again it could just be that i haven't seen it. my hunch is that most benthic copepods would probably be too small to arouse his interest, but that's just a guess.
as far as other fish, you've got some good choices. there are plenty of small gobies that could make good tank mates, and plenty of other smaller fish. i would stay away from tangs (obviously), and damsels for sure.
getting the pods in to the DT from the fuge can happen on its own. i just don't run a sponge or prefilter on my return pump, and i don't run a filter sock on my overflow. so everything more or less has open access to the cycle of the water column.
culturing pods and phyto plankton in external vessels works well too. i used some old 2 liter bottles for my phyto, and some of those large pretzel jugs from CostCo for my pods. then i just sat them up in the window of my spare bedroom to get some light. you don't have to culture pods and phyto, but it is kind of fun to do, and can help you hedge your bets as to the food sources.
the more you stack the deck in your favor with these types of fish, or any specialized eaters, the better off you will be in the long run. i've heard some people who keep freshwater and saltwater compare the dragonets to Dario darios, with their propensity to hunt and peck for live food, while tending to ignore, or be indifferent to prepared foods.
you can successfully get dragonets on to prepared foods in many cases, even sometimes pellets, but the difficulty with making that their primary food source is the way they tend to graze.
rather than eating a few large meals per day, these guys need to forage constantly. they have short digestive tracks, and will pick at the rocks and sand every moment they're awake. so i treat any prepared or frozen food as a supplement.
that's where the Paul B style feeder can come in handy, as you can see in the second picture there. the netting on tops helps to slowly release the baby brine shrimp inside, so that they can be picked at over the course of a few hours.
here is a video i took of her eating:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fl_hnnvgbWo?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
you're off to a great start for getting a mandy, because you're asking the right questions.
the one thing i will say in general about the jumpers, is that all fish will jump if they feel threatened. i ran open top for quite a few months, but sadly lost one of my original clown fish pair when he decided to jump out. i am guessing he was scared at some point when i was away and made the leap.
glad i could help. i love seeing people successfully keeping these fish, in my opinion they are hands down some of the most gorgeous fish in the sea, and it always makes me happy to see fat, healthy specimens.
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
one last thought, then i will stop rambling 
although i haven't kept any personally, there are quite a few different types of cardinal fish that may be a good fit for your tank:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15+26
obviously check out the specifics of the fish before purchase, some of them would be a good fit, some would probably not. their group encompasses a range of sizes and personalities.
although i haven't kept any personally, there are quite a few different types of cardinal fish that may be a good fit for your tank:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15+26
obviously check out the specifics of the fish before purchase, some of them would be a good fit, some would probably not. their group encompasses a range of sizes and personalities.
lcs
It's Spring!!!!!!!
Mandarins are wonderful additions if you can support them! I brought one back from the brink of starvation in a 56, but I was home and was able to target feed him four times a day (and fight off my melanurus wrasse 
). I'm getting one soon for my 125; I know the tank is big enough, but I've still created "pod piles" and have added pods.
I have no experience with dottybacks - would it harass the mandarin?
). I'm getting one soon for my 125; I know the tank is big enough, but I've still created "pod piles" and have added pods.I have no experience with dottybacks - would it harass the mandarin?
Rawrsean
New member
That's awesome, thank you so much for the detailed response. It sounds like if I do decide to pull the trigger on the mandarin it would be the last addition to the tank. My other stocking ideas are a couple of clowns (not sure on what kind yet), a royal gramma, a bicolor blenny and maybe an orchid dottyback. I'm trying to 1) not overstock the tank, 2) stick to peaceful fish, 3) avoid any jumpers since it'll be a rimless tank with no cover (I know all fish can jump if spooked, I just want to minimize the risk), and 4) stick with smaller fish that won't outgrow the tank. I keep coming up with a new fish that I'd like but then ruling it out for one of the above reasons! Would any of those fish be competitors for pods? Any suggestions on other fish that would work for me?
I'd planned on cultivating pods in the fuge, but I have a silly question - how do they get to the tank? Would I use a turkey baster to snatch some up and manually transfer them to the DT?
I've kept freshwater tanks for years but this will be my first saltwater tank, so that was another reason I'd want to wait and gain some experience before introducing a mandarin. No offense taken! Thanks again for the info, and your mandarin looks lovely
I'd personally be cautious because gramas, dottybacks, and small blennies have small mouths and would be more likely to eat the same food and out compete.
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
here is the link to the original thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2113800&highlight=feeding+station
basically it is just a long, rigid, airline tube (3/8" ID seems to be a good size), with a small funnel at the top, and a 90 degree bend at the bottom, which allows you to route the tube in to a small plastic dish. an old NLS container works well for this, but anything small with a lid can work.
then you cut out the middle of the lid, leaving only a rim, and cover the new opening with some kind of mesh. old fishing nets, breeder nets, even women's nylon stockings can work, as long as the opening is small enough.
this allows you to pour in newly hatched brine shrimp nauplii and wash them down with a little water. this moves them in to the cup, and the netting keeps them all from coming out at the same time.
then as you can see in the video and picture above, your mandy (or seahorse/pipefish/whoever) can sit on top of the feeder, and feed at their leisure.
i modified mine slightly using the magnets from an old small koralia powerhead. i used the old PH base and zip tied it to my rigid airline tube, so i can mount it magnetically to the side of the tank.
