Marine Velvet or Ich? *PICS*

apex82

New member
After my recent crash/poison episode my butterfly and triggerfish have started to get major symptoms for ich or possible velvet from the stress. They have it had it for about 6 solid days now and are still eating. They look uncomfortable, scraping rocks at times and hiding a lot more than usual. Is it possible to have both at same time? Would they be dead by now if it was velvet? It always looks worse when lights come on in the morning. My camera is not the greatest, so symptoms can only really be seen on the butterfly. The trigger has lint type spots/residue on its head and a white film/residue on its fins that are hard to see on camera.

Please help advising if you think its Ich or velvet? Both if possible?

Notice Larger white spots but then thin white coat covering most of body

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ich...velvet is more grey/gold and harder to actually see. You are going to want to get all your fish into q tanks and let your tank go fallow for 6 or more weeks. Some say 8 or more. Treat your fish in those qt's with your prefered method i.e. hypo, tank transfer, copper power etc etc.
 
It is ich IMO if they are eating I would leave them where they are I would worry that if they made it through the stress of a crash moving them could make it worse. However if they make it and you don'tleave your tank fallow you will always have ich. I have had fish with it this and they have recovered in my tank. If you remove them take out all your fish
 
You might try reading this.

Here we go again; please follow the link. Its based on solid, scientific, well researched information. BTW, your fish are heavily infested with parasites because the parasites were present in the tank; not just because they were stressed. Good QT practices can eliminate this problem---permanently. Now I will go bang my head against the wall.
 
Still look like ich? Moved to quarantine yesterday with coppesafe at proper dosage.... Lost 2 of my fav fish in hospital tank overnight and now my number 1 fish blue chin trigger probably has hours if not minutes left.... fml

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He has lots of white cottony, lint pieces hanging on his head
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Sorry for your losses here. Quick question. Was your QT tank already established or did you just start it up? If you just started it up, did you use any prime amquel or seachem stability? I have heard that some of these instant start additives can react with copper products and become lethal.
 
No it was not set up prior, I set up the qt tank the day I moved them. I figured I would just do partial wc every day or so. I used 75% water from display tank, the rest was freshly mixed a few days ago. However, I did mix some prime in with the saltwater because I dont have an ro/di, but it sat for a few days....
 
Ok just found this http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq2. In that link you will see this q and a :
Q: I've been dosing with Cupramineโ„ข and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened?

A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuardโ„ข (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Primeร‚ยฎ then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.
Now this is for cupramine but the reaction should be the same for any copper containing additive I would think.

If this is truely what happend then it is for sure a huge shame since you had the right intensions and were wanting to save your fish. This is why I keep a qt up 24/7.
 
Wow ***? With all the research I have done I have never seen anything on this!? I even read the back of prime to see of any warnings using with copper... Do the effects look like overdose of copper or a big outbreak of velvet, brookynella or ich? He has lots of white scabs sorta... as if you got a sunburn and your skin begins to peel
 
Sorry, you lost some good fish. I think, judging from the photo of the bannerfish (butterfly) that your fish probably were in big trouble, even before you moved them to QT. I'm not good at telling parasites from just pics, but some educated guesses: 1.) I think there's a good chance that your tank has marine velvet. this is a very fast spreading, very contagious deadly parasite. it may be a very advanced case of ich---I just can't tell from the pics. 2.) It looks like you waited way too long to treat these fish; that butterfly did't get that bad overnight. 3.) Anyone who tells you not to worry, when a fish is covered head-to- tail with parasites and a slimy coat is really missing it. Please don't listen to such advice in the future. Check the stickys in the disease section for advice that you can trust. 3.) The cottony patches are probably a fungal infection, usually secondary to what the parasites are doing. Fungus takes a while to develop, another reason I feel treatment was delayed too long. 4.) You were right to get the fish out of your DT, even if you lose them all. You have to let the tank go fishless anyhow and dead, large fish can create a tremendous amount of ammonia; endangering everything else in your tank. 5.) Is this the same tank you were setting up just a couple months ago? If so, its WAY to early to have so many large fish in it. this could easily be the foundation of all your problems. 6.) Here's a cut & paste of what I do to cycle a QT; like Evsalty said, QT is always instantly available.
"In regards to Qt cycling; I've done this for years. Get a HOB filter; I really like Aqua-Clear, they have a big sponge and last forever. Don't use the carbon or ceramic noodles that come with the filter. Also, have some extra sponges on hand, they're cheap. Keep a sponge in the flow somewhere in your DT. When you need a QT or HT, just use the sponge that has been in your main system in your QT filter---the QT will be instantly cycled. When done, toss the sponge and keep a new one ready in your main system.
BTW, Cupramine copper, used in a QT,will not destroy a bio-filter. Do not use ammonia neutralizing products with Cupramine." 7.) Please use this experience to help others when they are told that parasite infestations will "just go away on their own". 8.) While everyone is right on mixing copper & ammonia-neutralizers, I don't think this is what killed your fish. IMO, a very heavy concentration of a parasite did.
 
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I'm so sorry for the losses: this has to be a heartbreak. If it's any comfort whatsoever, the warning about Cupramine/Prime/Paraguard has now been made a sticky in this forum so that others will know about this drug/chemical interaction.
 
I'm so sorry for the losses: this has to be a heartbreak. If it's any comfort whatsoever, the warning about Cupramine/Prime/Paraguard has now been made a sticky in this forum so that others will know about this drug/chemical interaction.


That is a very good sticky :)
 
Thanks for all the info. I really believe it was the prime + coppersafe that caused this... The day I put them in (yesterday) the only one that looked bad was the butterfly, the others were just lethargic, hiding and not eating much. The trigger, the only one that survived is a night and day difference.... you can tell from the before pictures. I cant believe this warning is not mentioned on one of the products... even briefly. I had sponges in the sump trying to seed but only had a half day before needing to use them in qt tank. I will follow this procedure from now on after this disaster is resolved... what a mess
 
Thanks for all the info. I really believe it was the prime + coppersafe that caused this... The day I put them in (yesterday) the only one that looked bad was the butterfly, the others were just lethargic, hiding and not eating much. The trigger, the only one that survived is a night and day difference.... you can tell from the before pictures. I cant believe this warning is not mentioned on one of the products... even briefly. I had sponges in the sump trying to seed but only had a half day before needing to use them in qt tank. I will follow this procedure from now on after this disaster is resolved... what a mess
The lethargy,hiding, loss of appetite, etc. can be signs of a serious parasite infection that has primarily attacked the fish's gills---its most vulnerable spot. You may never know exactly what happened. I've been there....and learned a ton from the experience.
 
What are those white areas/patches on that Trigger? Is it on the fish? or it's on the glass?

It it's on the fish, did he have them before he died?
This is not Marine Ich.
 
If you look back at the beginning of this thread you can see that there was ich on atleast one fish in the op's tank so the op removed all the and put them in QT. Unfortuneately the QT was set up that day with new saltwater that had Prime added to it. The prime and the cupermine that was then added more then likely caused highly toxic levels of CU+ as opposed to CU+2 (10X difference according to SeaChem) which then caused the fish to end up looking like that.
 
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