Marketable species

[SueQ]

TomRep-
I wouldn't stereotype all academic research based on that one article. Just b/c HPL had a grant to breed nemo doesn't mean the rest of us are also "reinventing the wheel". Much of what goes on is often not publishable by research standards. Yet, there are many academic research programs out there who are doing groundbreaking stuff. Maybe it's not exactly w/ ornamentals as much of it is with commerical scale rearing of marine food fish, but it's stuff that could be tried in the ornamental world.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8464594#post8464594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TomRep
FishGuttz- I completely agree with you that the government should look into us small breeders and see what we are doing, but honestly, it's probably a waste of time. I think it's pathetic how they fund all these schools and such for this matter and all the schools do in return is "reinvent the wheel". There was a post on here a couple weeks ago how the government gave a pile of money to someone for research and all they did (that we know of) is breed Clownfish. I think Ed or Matt or most anyone on this page that is as into this part of the hobby as those two guys are should get all the money that the schools are getting, andthen some! But, unfortunatly, I think it would be hard to get that kind of funding. Just my opinion.
Tom
ps.- I'm not telling you in any way that it will NEVER happen, I'm just saying I think it will be extremely tough.

 

[mwp]

do you think redhead gobies would sell as well as the neons?

If they actually had bright red heads, not orange like most I've seen in the LFS's.

Actually, after rethinking this following posting, no, Red Heads might not sell quite as well. Neon Gobies have that great blue coloration...blue is one of the big draws to saltwater fish over many freshwater fish (with the noteable acception of the africans and discus and neon dwarf rainbow). PLUS, the Neon Goby group (including the gold lines) have the added benefit of being cleaners, AND the added benefit of not being so reclusive (it took MONTHS for my GBGs to settle down and show themselves now and again...the rusty gobies, well I think it's been 2-3 months and I still RARELY see them).

The big drawback to ALL of these little gobies is that even when mature they are "surface skimmer bait" and get lost in big tanks. With the increased interest in nano-reefs these fish have more possible homes than before though.

Matt

 

[aomont]

AquaticFins, thank you for your opinion on this thread !

What´s the wholesale price for you on the neon gobies ? Any difference in preference from blue to yellow lined ?

Anderson.

 

[Dman]

Aquaticfins,
Thanks for taking the time to chime in so clearly and concisely, bravo.
Up here, without Ocellaris, you won't even get your foot in the door. Most places won't even consider A. frenatus or B. premnas unless they come "bundled" with 50 Ocellaris. Even then I might only get them into 20% of the local market. Low market species can be lots of fun to try out and some species are better than others to run experiments with, but other-wise it's a waste of valuable resources. With 7 species (make it 8 if you include the insanity that is H. reidi) currently on the go right now, sleep is but a distant memory.
Getting into a larger scale setup like myself should only be done over time with the proceeds of previous sales unless you have deep pockets and more than plenty of time. The idea was to turn this into full time work for myself by 2009, but at this rate I might be dead before then
I HAD gold variant G. oceanops breeding, but raising the fry is a whole new ball game. One that I myself wasn't that successful at. The market for them is definately there, but as to whether or not they would be viable from a profit stand point I was never able to determine.
My best advice is to start with A. ocellaris and take on more of them as your time/space/financial resources willl allow and couple that with market saturation issues before expanding into other species.
If you keep this to a minimum/hobbiest level type endevour, it can be fun and rewarding, as soon as you cross the fuzzy line into hardcore supply chain management level it becomes WORK and you need to make sure you come up with a realistic business plan and RESEARCH your local/potential marketplace.

 

[mwp]

Hey all - found that "top twenty" list in another forum while browsing for latezonatus Here it is, quoted from that forum posting

Here is a top 20 list of the most popular fishes collected for the marine ornamental trade. It was compiled by John Brandt a few years ago, so there have likely been some changes, but it will give you an idea of the market.
1.) Green chromis (Chromis viridis)
2.) Yellow tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
3.) Ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris)
4.) Blue damselfish (Chrysiptera cyanea)
5.) 3-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus aruanus)
6.) Domino (3-spot) damselfish (Dascyllus trimaculatus)
7.) Yellowtail damselfish (Chrysiptera parasema)
8.) 4-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus melanurus)
9.) Cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus)
10.) Mandarinfish (Synchiropus splendidus)
11.) Royal gramma (Gramma loreto)
12.) Firefish (Nemateleotris magnifica)
13.) Blue tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
14.) Percula clownfish (Amphiprion percula)
15.) Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosus)
16.) Flame angelfish (Centropyge loriculus)
17.) Scooter dragonet (Synchiropus sp.)
18.) Clark's clownfish (Amphiprion clarkii)
19.) Lyretail anthias (Pseudanthias squamipinnis)
20.) Six-line wrasse (Pseudocheilinus hexataenia)


MP

 

[Noof]

I agree with the rest of the posters (well most of them) on this thread and I thank you Aquaticfins for your opinion.
This was close to what I was looking for on this topic. I have a limitted market in Adelaide and was looking for other species to breed. Clowns are no problems except storage while the market catches up with me. So much so if I raise 25 per batch then I have plenty.
Havent got to wholesalers yet, If there are any in Australia interested then let me know!

The other problem in Australia is getting hold of some of these species. Gobies are few and far between and i have been trying to get my hands on a pair of bangais for a while now. Would be interested in doing a little groundbreaking like MWP but .. well its maybe a case of right place right time? and it hasnt happened yet!

Cheers
Nathan

 

[FishGuttz]

I didn't even consider the behaviour of the fish as a selling point, but I guess nobody wants a fish they never see.

I don't plan on being a supplier, I just want to be able to breed some small fish and have an outlet for my small successes. My LFS insists that breeding Ocellaris is nearly impossible and he "has a lot of friends in the business and no one he knows has been successful." Should I tell him about you guys. It's funny he owns the nicest lfs in NYC and has been extremely succesful for 20 years doing local sales, installations, and home maintenance. I guess the LFS guys have no idea what's going on with breeders.

 

[David M]

Misc FWIW...

I keep getting the same feedback from both retailers and wholesalers, there is nothing wrong with wc frenatus clowns. They are are healthy, have good color and wholesale for a few bucks. I can barely sell 5 at a time to a few select lfs and get only $6 for them, I have stopped breeding them and don't really think they are a good species to work (waste your time) with.

IME the problem with the oceanops gobies is that they are fairly short lived, by the time you think you have a handle on raising them you lose the pair. If I were to try again I'd start with several pairs and add more every 6 months or so. That way if you get a working protocol going you will always have young breeders to work with.

Raising bangaii is easy but until the market realizes this is a $39 fish (retail) it simply isn't worth it. I have 5 breeding pairs and I don't raise a single one, I am waiting in the hopes that the market will change. Right now wc bangaii are about $3.50 in LA. It is sad to note that retailers I talk to say even though they lose most of them they still make money. What an attitude

I agree completely that any hobby breeder/ fledgling business is going to need ocellaris to get recognized. Or percs but you'd probably sell them as oc's :eek1:

 

[mwp]

I agree completely that any hobby breeder/ fledgling business is going to need ocellaris to get recognized. Or percs but you'd probably sell them as oc's

I stopped at one of the area LFS's last night - they pay a whopping $5 for locally TR Ocellaris. Not harping on the guy 'cause I genuinely like him, but he threw that out there as if to suggest that a) it's good money and b) it's what they'd expect to pay for my Onyx Percs. I simply chuckled and said, "Oh, these are a bit more expensive than that"!

I made the rounds to some other area shops over the weekend; here's a quick rundown of what was in the tanks.

Shop #1 - 1 Black Clarki Pair, 1 "Goldfin Clownfish" Pair, a couple random Maroon clowns, a couple orange skunk clowns, and a bunch of ocellaris.

Shop #2 - Black Saddles, nasty WC emmaciated clarkii's, Great looking Cinnamons, 1 pink skunk, 2 orange skunks, and a bunch of ocellaris.

I could keep going...see a pattern yet....?

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

The guy who pays $5 for Ocellaris is not counting the $2 a fish he pays to have them shipped, and the cost of the dead ones he bought. When you enter into negotiations with your customers, do not fail to mention these things. This time of year, also mention that your fish don't have Brooklynella either, and if your buyers keep your fish in a seperate system from wild caught, they won't get sick and die before he can sell them.

If you deliver healthy fish, you should get a higher price for them.

 

[Kathy55g]

Rod gets a lot more per onyx fish, but he sells direct to the customer.

 

[AquaticFins]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8491125#post8491125 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishGuttz
Fins,
Thanks for that incredibly useful and proprietary information. I think you'll be the new link for people asking the "how much for my fish?" question. I am considering an oceanops breeding system as we speak. Mostly because they are supposed to be easy to breed, but it's also nice to know I can sell the little guys!

do you think redhead gobies would sell as well as the neons?

The most common redhead goby I know of is Elacatinus/Gobiosoma puncticulatus. This fish is occasionally popular for use in nano aquariums, but does not sell in anywhere near the quantity that the members of the Neon Goby complex do. I think that MWP's speculation as to the reasons why is pretty much correct. They're much more reclusive, not as vibrantly coloured, and an ornamental fish choice rather than a functional fish. The easiest fish to sell are not always the pretty ones - they're the fish that can solve a problem!

Beyond that, E. puncticulatus is significantly more territorial, and at a smaller size, than the neon cleaner goby group. The retailer needs to either have a cubical-style system or dividers of some sort - placing more than one of these guys in an aquarium does not work well in the retail environment. If for no other reason than this, I'm not going to buy them in the quantities that I buy neon gobies. I can stick twenty of those in one aquarium. I need twenty retail tanks for the same number of red-head gobies.

They are breedable, and I do purchase them...but you're going to sell me a lot more neon gobies than redheads.

As far as the different species in the neon cleaner complex, the basic blue neon cleaner is the most popular. Roughly speaking, I expect to pay somewhere around US$6-10 for neon gobies. The yellow-striped variants usually are around$10-12 per fish.

MWP's list brings up another fish that I did not mention previously - Chromis viridis. This is a fish that is an absolute staple of the hobby, imported in huge quantities, and most importantly, rising in price and declining in quality for the past few years. Even so, I've heard absolutely no discussion on the captive breeding of this fish. It's true, they're still only a US$2.50 fish, but the mortalitity rate of this fish is such that if a local breeder could supply me for $4.50-$5 a fish, it would still be more profitable for me than dealing with the assortment of disease issues this species seems to invariably come in with.

The posts of David M and MWP made me realise that I should probably add a bit of a disclaimer to my posts - I'm located in the Michigan, United States market and I deal with a fairly limited number of wholesalers. I run a business that values quality over price, and both myself and my customers expect to pay for it. You absolutely will run into stores that expect to pay far less than I for fish, though I doubt you'll find much interest in captive-raised fish at most of those stores anyway.

 

[ediaz]

Rasing occelaris is like driving a ferrari at 120 mph, raising chromis is like driving a ferrari at 120 mph, drunk, and blindfolded...

I had some experience with dominoes damsels in the past, after a year of triying at a big hatchery, the results, nothing, the same person who ran the trials, sucessfully raised the similar golden damsel, but it was not easy and certainly a high cost and effort was needed. The price of the product will be about ten times of the WC fish to make a profit or even break even. And as long as they sell them for 2.50 a piece I don't see that happening.



Who is the breeder in Detroit doing jawfish??

"You absolutely will run into stores that expect to pay far less than I for fish, though I doubt you'll find much interest in captive-raised fish at most of those stores anyway."

AMEN!

Ed

 

[aomont]

Hi Ediaz ! Chromis are pelagic spawners, aren´t they ? Are they as hard as the mandarinfish to raise ?
Anderson.

 

[mwp]

Chromis lay demersal eggs like clownfish I thought...aka. substrate spawners. the LARVAE I believe are pelagic though.

Just another input on the clownfish front. I obtained a hand picked pair of Allardis from one of my few favorite LFS's today. He had the opportunity to buy more, but didn't, even though he'd retail them for next to nothing compared to what most online retailers want. Should tell you something about the market for something like a clarkii vs. ocellaris, which he had several of in the shop again (as always).

Matt

 

[David M]

So here is something that cracks me up, I make my rounds today with ocellaris and tomato clowns. Obviously breeding marine tropicals is easy, almost every store I go to asks "what else you got?"

It didn't surprise me when I saturated the local San Diego market, but I never thought I could saturate Los Angelos. I sold a crappy 60 fish today, normally 100-120. I am on a 3 week cycle with the stores, I have 3 LA routes I run. Everywhere I went today still had fish from three weeks ago. One store owner actually said to me that the problem is my fish don't die. Can you believe that?? I was critisized for having strong, healthy fish :mad2: He makes his money selling the same fish over and over to the same customer, blaming the customers tank/ water/ food/ husbandry for the deaths. This enables him to sell more fish as well as gadgets, gizmos, magic powders and snake oils all designed to make the fish live. What a racket !!!

Fortunately there are other people like Aquatic Fins that support our efforts and help us out. I met such a fellow today, he is a big shot in the industry and offered to help open up a whole new market area for me.

To tie this back to the thread I picked up an awesome pair of Clarkii's today as well as a trio of royal grammas. Until I can produce enough oc's to make it wholesaling them off I think what I really need is diversification. If I am going to depend on sales direct to retailers I need more species to offer.

 

[mwp]

Hey, I speak from experience with the African Cichlids - it's a niche of sorts, not all that different from "TR" marines for the moment. We got in the door on two basic priciples. First, having ALL the bread and butter but NONE of those bread and butter that are "bad" (i.e. we very seldom offered Psuedotropheus crabro, the "Bumblebee Cichlid). In fact, it wasn't so much that we got in the door with the bread and butter because we were generally more expensive with the bread and butter. What it took to be successful was to HAVE the bread and butter to make orders worthwhile. What REALLY got us in the door was the unusual, top shelf stuff, things like Adult Black Calvus (Altolamprologus compressiceps), Tangayikan Killies, Black & White Featherfins, and more pure Victorians than anyone else in the country could offer (at that time). When you're the only place someone can get Nyererei, they'll order lemon yellows too

Variety is ALWAYS key. That's why the shops will always have some maroons & tomatos running around. Its for those clients who say "I want something different"....and those are the folks who tend to spend money.

Just another late night rambling - good luck with the Gramma trio David!

Matt

 

[Jake15]

well i just wish my clowns would lay already. around here you cant find a spawning or mated pair. They typically have a bunch of O's, hardly any percs (which i think are better looking), never any onyx, a few maroons, and a few GSM.

 

[ediaz]

Lets all sell to Aquaticfins, I am closer!!

David welcome to the industry!!

Anderson, like my clone said they are demersal, and no they are easier to raise if you provide copepod as fist food, thats the hard part, they also require exellent water quality.I have not seen any benthic larvae so far...

Ed

 

[mwp]

Milk Jugs Ed, Milk Jugs.

I'd love to sell to someone with the "level" of Aquatic fins, but the way things are going, I'm going to have to boutique my limited production directly to the hobbyist if I'm going to make any serious financial gains....TR mandarins, in the works, still

Matt