Maroon clown with swim bladder issue.

[JSeymour]

So on 5/8, I picked up two small maroon clownfish from a group and placed them in a 20 long for quarantine with a blackbar filefish. The tank was already in full hyposalinity, 1.0085:11ppt. The two clowns immediately started fighting, which I expected to some degree.

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As you can see, the smaller of the two was tiring and the aggression wasn't subsiding, so I separated them almost immediately after the video. This is minutes out of the bag. The little guy just laid there.

Fast forward to today. He is still laying there. He eats anything I give him, produces tons of feces, fights through the divider, he just can't buoy himself. This isn't my first quarantine, ammonia never gets above .25 ppm, although this quarantine tank is fully cycled so its 0 ppm. pH remains stable at 8.0.

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If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears, but the main reason I'm posting is to get an opinion on whether you think he can recover. I'm not going to cull him unless his condition deteriorates, just wondering if I need to start looking for a new mate for the "female". These were supposed to be breeders. :/

 

[snorvich]

How did you acclimate them to your hyposaline quarantine?

 

[GroktheCube]

I too might suspect a hyposalinity issue.

You could try feeding medicated food (seachem focus, metronidazole, and a deworming drug like prazi levamisole or fenbendazole), as intestinal bacterial or parasitic infections can sometimes cause swim bladder issues.

 

[JSeymour]

They came straight out of the shipment bag from ORA at 1.018 and were drip acclimated for about 4 hours to the quarantine tank. I have done this even quicker with more sensitive species without any problems.

 

[JSeymour]

Missed the second part, metro+ and prazipro are standards in my quarantine procedure, both internal and external. I've already completed these.

 

[Deinonych]

They came straight out of the shipment bag from ORA at 1.018 and were drip acclimated for about 4 hours to the quarantine tank. I have done this even quicker with more sensitive species without any problems.

What was/is the SG of the QT?

 

[snorvich]

What was/is the SG of the QT?

He had previously indicated 1.0085:11ppt

 

[cngreg]

I have seen this before with fish after long bouts of disease or stress. I think if they becoming metabolically acidic they are unable to control the deposition of gas into their swim bladder. The body relies on pH within the blood to deposit co2 into the bladder lumen. The mechanism is such that being too acidic would let co2 go more easily (why stressed seahorses often float yet acytlezolamide can mitigate) yet i wonder if the bladder can even rupture. Clowns are advanced fishes and don't have the saftey valve to the gut like more primitive fishes. Possible once its collapsed it stays stuck (like collapsed lung in humans held by surfactant and fibrosing together over time if not positive pressure inflated)

 

[snorvich]

I have seen this before with fish after long bouts of disease or stress. I think if they becoming metabolically acidic they are unable to control the deposition of gas into their swim bladder. The body relies on pH within the blood to deposit co2 into the bladder lumen. The mechanism is such that being too acidic would let co2 go more easily (why stressed seahorses often float yet acytlezolamide can mitigate) yet i wonder if the bladder can even rupture. Clowns are advanced fishes and don't have the saftey valve to the gut like more primitive fishes. Possible once its collapsed it stays stuck (like collapsed lung in humans held by surfactant and fibrosing together over time if not positive pressure inflated)

A very interesting post. I will have to research that further. Thanks!!!!

 

[JSeymour]

I have seen this before with fish after long bouts of disease or stress. I think if they becoming metabolically acidic they are unable to control the deposition of gas into their swim bladder. The body relies on pH within the blood to deposit co2 into the bladder lumen. The mechanism is such that being too acidic would let co2 go more easily (why stressed seahorses often float yet acytlezolamide can mitigate) yet i wonder if the bladder can even rupture. Clowns are advanced fishes and don't have the saftey valve to the gut like more primitive fishes. Possible once its collapsed it stays stuck (like collapsed lung in humans held by surfactant and fibrosing together over time if not positive pressure inflated)

It actually gets even crazier than this, as stress levels rise, respiration increases, increased respiration results in elevated CO2 levels in the blood and tissues, increased lactic acid production(which further increases CO2 levels). As the pH drops, cortisol levels increase. Cortisol is documented to cause all sorts of problems, including temporary and permanent organ failure. And that's really only the beginning. This is what I believe to be the cause, as well as potentially a mechanical collapsing. I also don't believe there is any treatment available that can help him, other than good food and clean water.

I have dealt with this in other Perciformes a couple times in the last two decades, notably freshwater cichlids(basically freshwater damsels) after attempted pairings. The fish will often seem to have an ok quality of life, eating, defending, and even spawning(true story), but eventually I end up euthanizing them due to chronic "bed sores".

I guess I'm just looking for a success story of a fish with a deflated bladder recovering, because IME, it doesn't happen.

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[snorvich]

very educational thread!

 

[Deinonych]

He had previously indicated 1.0085:11ppt

Thanks - missed that!

 

[Louis Z]

old thread but good, I do not like hyposalinity since i saw some cardinals affected adversly to it. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the perceived infection or infestation. Ok so my problem is the reverse , newly acquired small flame angel not being able to submerge. came in today without problem but by this evening developed the problem. 3 hour acclimation drip, was in QT with other fish. I have since moved him to HT with about 2 inches of water and placed him in dark black tub with cover to minimize his stress. He was swimming fast trying to submerge, a few more hours of this and he would exhaust himself. will try metronidazole first then erythromycin. or if someone has a better idea i am willing to listen