MARS Bulk Purchases

I agree that we don't want to hurt the LFS, and I think something along the lines of the PM reactor buy are a great opportunity for both the LFS and MARS members. The members get the discount, and the LFS gets the increased traffic due solely to the group buy. How often do we go to a LFS and come out empty handed? Win-win situation.
Other group buys are great too, as long as the LFS are not hurt by it. The salt buy for example would take away some profit, but not a considerable amount. Maybe a GB of salt through a LFS could be arranged and the club could spearhead that and have everyone (or most everyone) pick up at the meeting. And as Kevin pointed out, the Neptune GB is for goods not normally stocked.
 
With statements like
"The LFSs are not mentioned in the charter. The members are. Preserving the LFSs is only required when not doing so negatively affects the members.

Please keep your arguments concrete. First and foremost, establish how the LFS going away is a detriment to our members. Secondly, define how MARS prevents them from staying in business."

I think I can see why the club used to have major issues with the local LFS.

You are kidding right?

What would our club be without the LFS in the area to provide us with stuff to put in our tanks (and the tanks themselves?)

Mail order all the time? Not me. No way.

"and to acquire and own such property as may be necessary for any or all of the foregoing purposes."

Allow me to help clarify that statement.
(from the homepage of MARS)

"knowledge and materials required to keep marine aquariums are enthusiastically shared."

So if you want to use club resources to make group buys and they evenly distribute everything to the whole club, I guess that would be okay. You are using my money to make the group buy. Only fair that I should get part of the return. Buy in amount for the group buys dont count. End result would be even distribution.

Example.

I donated about a hundred and some frags to the last frag swap. I left with about 15. Everyone left with about 15 I am thinking. Should I have gotten a hundred frags to take home?

No. We share. Even distribution.

And lastly,

" I know of several cases where the group buy coordinators, myself included, were stuck with more product than they needed because member committed but didn't collect."

If that is a driving concern here, great, but please understand that it is also a major responsibility. I think its fairly common to see group buys turn ugly very quickly. I agree with Justin that the group as a whole should not be dragged into that kind of mess.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11418025#post11418025 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Brian Prestwood

3c) Varations on the �MARS must preserve the LFSs� theme.

The LFSs are not mentioned in the charter. The members are. Preserving the LFSs is only required when not doing so negatively affects the members.

Please keep your arguments concrete. First and foremost, establish how the LFS going away is a detriment to our members. Secondly, define how MARS prevents them from staying in business.


"First and foremost, establish how the LFS going away is a detriment to our members.

Our members have clearly established in this thread that they enjoy shopping at their LFS. Shopping at a local store is a chance to view ideas and concepts that one maybe has never seen or heard of before. It is also a place where one can get an answer to a question from a knowledgeable person face to face. The fact that the members have clearly stated they would be willing to pay more to shop there is a testament to how important these stores are to the members of MARS. If these stores were to close it would be detrimental (damaging or harmful) to our members as it would take away an important pieceof the hobby they love.

"Secondly, define how MARS prevents them from staying in business."

Mars doing group buys would allow people to take money that is spent in the LFS and spend it somewhere else. The LFS would then not make a profit on those items. The more profit the club caused them to lose, the greater their chance would be of not being able to stay open. I am not saying we as a club are strong enough purchasers that we could cause the stores to close necessarily. I am saying however that I would not want the club to help or aid in that cause.

Lastly "The LFSs are not mentioned in the charter. The members are. Preserving the LFSs is only required when not doing so negatively affects the members.

The members are clearly saying that the LFS matter to them! They say so with their mouths and their wallets. The charter says "Preserving the LFSs is only required when not doing so negatively affects the members." The members are saying preserving the LFS is VERY important to them. Therefore the charter is backing the argument made of not hurting the local fish stores very implictly. I want our club to promote our hobby and strenghten it throughout our regoin. Having stores is one of the best ways that our hobby is promoted. I know that stores in our area are responsible for new hobbyists much more than MARS or Reefcentral is. People find us after they have already began in the hobby usually. They many times learn of us IN THE STORES! I feel if we are to be a responible club that benefits our hobby and members in our area, it is of the utmost importance that we try and work hand in hand with the others such as the LFS that are also promoting our hobby.

Brian, I appreciate your ideas but in this area I feel that you are not taking into consideration, or understanding just how much our LFS mean to the club and its members. They are not just a resource to some of us but more of an integral part of the hobby. I feel that by supporting us they are practically members of our club and their ability to survive should be considered when we choose what we do as a club. It is not putting them ahead of the members, it is simply looking out for our fellow reefers and the good of the overally hobby.

Respectfully
Paul
 
I was just thinking that there is an idea related to GBs that I don't think has been broached. MARS "could" act as an intermediary with the LFS community to act as a conduit to organize GBs with the LFS.

This could be a win-win. LFS gets business they might not otherwise, they can order in bulk on top of the GB strengthening their price point for in-store sales and MARS could handle the monetary collection and act as a single point for communication with the LFS.

Thoughts?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11418555#post11418555 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by petes97
I was just thinking that there is an idea related to GBs that I don't think has been broached. MARS "could" act as an intermediary with the LFS community to act as a conduit to organize GBs with the LFS.

This could be a win-win. LFS gets business they might not otherwise, they can order in bulk on top of the GB strengthening their price point for in-store sales and MARS could handle the monetary collection and act as a single point for communication with the LFS.

Thoughts?

Mike and I had just discussed this recently and I already know of some stores that would be happy to do this for us. I have already had offers from stores on Rod's food, bulbs and salt.. I can think of some other stores that would surely aid in this as well. IMO if they make a small profit on the order and get inventory for less, that is fine by me.
 
Great points all! I want to thank everyone for contributing to this debate. It is not easy going up against longstanding traditions or ideas, and I am glad to see that the atmosphere here is conducive to probing the 'safe' boundaries so that we are not complacent in what we feel the club is (or not) for. Please share your thoughts - dissenting from the majority or otherwise! This is how change starts, and this is how you make MARS yours.
 
I don't really have any opinion for or against this issue because I usually miss out on these GBs because I have bad timing! I just would like to say that I hope this thread doesn't start getting nasty and that people don't start attacking Brian for being the messenger. I know many people don't agree with this idea, and thats fine, but I just don't want to see this turn into a MARS brawl. I applaud Brian for putting this touchy subject out in the open for us to discuss. That being said, I look forward to more members' opinions on the matter
 
It was just brought to my attention that my latest post seemed kinda harsh. I reread it and agree. Brian, I am not trying to rip on you or anything like this. I dont like the group buy concept, but otherwise have no issue with you at all. Just wanted to make sure that I wasnt making a jerk out of myself.

Sometimes I really need to make sure I re-read everything I type.

And its early.

I am not a morning person.

Sorry man.
 
Wow, this is spicy. Let's keep it civil.

In concept I think GBs are good. Tact and execution make all the difference. I propose the board schedule an agenda item to - discuss - meeting with LFSs to find ways to make GBs mutually beneficial and/or to define other ways both parties can help each other become stronger. We're all in this together. One of my favorite things is making an LFS tour (almost weekly). Like KMP says: "It's my trip to the zoo."
 
For what its worth, dont let my position sway anyone else. I am almost convinced the trailer idea isnt a good one after reading some of the arguments against it. (And I was all for it last night).

Same could happen here.
 
You may want to check a lot deeper into the tax issue ;) BAR lost it's exempt status over something very similiar. So have other clubs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11418818#post11418818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
You may want to check a lot deeper into the tax issue ;) BAR lost it's exempt status over something very similiar. So have other clubs.

I am not a tax attorney, but I am currently going through the myriad of tax code to secure a NPO for another project of mine. In the process I have had the distinct pleasure of working with the IRS and BoE regarding these types of issues and I can give firsthand experience on how they perceive these types of activities. In the past there have been NPOs created by shady individuals as $$$ shelters as a front to tax evasion and the government simply does not like getting paid whats due. In a post Enron world, you give them an excuse to reevaluate the NPO status, and I assure you they will be all too happy to accommodate.

Gresham, is it top secret or can you expand on what you all ran into in BAR?
 
Might I also say that I really enjoy this club as a whole, even if being in it causes people I know to call me a nerd! Most if not all are very respectful and are willing to help out others more than I have ever seen before. I dread the day I move back to the LA area and have to leave this club. I think I have finally arrived at an opinion, I think it reflects that of Petes:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11418555#post11418555 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by petes97
I was just thinking that there is an idea related to GBs that I don't think has been broached. MARS "could" act as an intermediary with the LFS community to act as a conduit to organize GBs with the LFS.

This could be a win-win. LFS gets business they might not otherwise, they can order in bulk on top of the GB strengthening their price point for in-store sales and MARS could handle the monetary collection and act as a single point for communication with the LFS.

I think some people have done this before and the stores are more than willing to accommodate this. We could use MARS as a whole by electing some sort of GB board member to coordinate these GB depending on the interest of the members in the club. All of this teamwork is making me all warm and fuzzy inside . . . I'm gonna go watch old reruns of Captain Planet now!!! ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11418897#post11418897 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bladeruner143


I think some people have done this before and the stores are more than willing to accommodate this. We could use MARS as a whole by electing some sort of GB board member to coordinate these GB depending on the interest of the members in the club. All of this teamwork is making me all warm and fuzzy inside . . . I'm gonna go watch old reruns of Captain Planet now!!! ;)

Go Planeteers!! :lol: Seriously though, I think this is a fabulous idea. MARS can help its members by coordinating a GB through the LFS - but act ONLY in a logistics capacity. The $$$ and risk is still on the shoulders of those participating in the GB. The stores get more traffic and potential sales, we as members get great discounts, MARS is a hero for putting all the right people together, and the whole tax requirements stay on the LFS side where it belongs.
 
I know for a fact that some of our stores would be willing to let us do this. I was approached just 2 days ago about the very same idea. (I have jsut started to get the info to the BOG).

While I dont think it is fair to use club money to secure the group buys, I think having a club official used as an intermediary would be a reasonable thing to do.

They could gather the money in advance, and act as a liason to the LFS. (Kinda like what paul does with the raffle). That same liason would then be responsible to distribute the product out to the buyers.

But this would have to be a pay in advance kind of thing. And price lists for livestock change weekly, so the individuals buiying would still have to engage in extra-club activity to get in on the group buy.

The real trick here is that we would still be customers at the LFS but we would be working with them in a manner slightly different than the way business is usually conducted.
 
If we are going to use club money for group buy, I propose that the group buy be open to ONLY club members. If we open it to non-club members, we will essential be acting as a merchant for the general public.
 
It concerns me that so much emphasis is placed on how "we" as a club impact the LFS's, rather than what "we" as a club can do for our members... Yeah, it's great to have a variety of LFS in our area, and sure, it's wonderful when they support MARS. But they're in business to make money, and that's why they support MARS in the first place. They're hoping to generate awareness and prompt a sales response. So let's not act like they're acting in a solely charitable manner. Don't get me wrong, I am constantly amazed by the generosity and level of support expressed by our LFS; but just as their main focus is to make enough money to survive, mine is to save enough to make this hobby feasible. Because if I can't afford the hobby I'm of no help to them anyway...

I've proposed and managed a number of "group buys", and I've always found a way to keep track of the participants and payment options without difficulty. Sure, I often try to coordinate with a LFS to facilitate the process of ordering through a vendor, but that's usually due to the vendor's designation as a wholeseller. So, in those cases, working with a LFS is often the only option. And as noted previously, it's often a win-win situation for both the buyer and the sponsoring LFS (or atleast, that's the intention). But, as I see it, most group buys are often made on items that are either not readily available locally, or are generally overly expensive when purchased on an individual basis. In those circumstances, I think a club sponsored option not only makes sense in a financial manner, but also adds to the club's value as a service to its members.

I gain more knowledge, receive more advice, and am exposed to more depth of experience here, on the MARS forums, than I ever have from any LFS. I originally came to MARS seeking knowledge and community, but I stayed because of its members. I could never support all of the LFS in my area, as they are numerous and somewhat widespread. If I were truly concerned about their sustainability, I guess that I would divide my monthly expenses between them all and "share the love". But that's not often feasible. I can, however, support MARS, and I do so when I can. I believe in the club, and I support its endeavors. But ultimately, I think that a club should be about its members, as opposed to being an off-shoot of community commerce.

One final thought: If there's so much concern with regard to supporting our LFS then maybe we should stop all of our home-grown coral propagation practices as well. I mean, think of how much more business the LFS would have if we HAD to buy all of our corals from them. Seems to me that that hurts their business much more than a few group buys ever would...
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11419114#post11419114 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shiveley
One final thought: If there's so much concern with regard to supporting our LFS then maybe we should stop all of our home-grown coral propagation practices as well. I mean, think of how much more business the LFS would have if we HAD to buy all of our corals from them. Seems to me that that hurts their business much more than a few group buys ever would...

But then we wouldn't be responsible environmentalists and conservators. I prefer to buy tank grown anything, when possible.

Jon, I think we have the unique opportunity to keep local stores in business, because it suits our needs. As a community the "wal-mart" effect on the hobby in Sacramento would really suck if the LFS ceased to exist. So, you have to decide when is cost more important then supporting local stores?
 
dramatization? really? I actually think it's a valid point in relation to the clubs financial impact on our LFS...member supported coral propagation, and the subsequent trades and/or sales of such items, have to have an impact on local retail sales. How can they not?

...I never said that the LFS weren't important to me...come on, I'd think a club representative would be a little more open minded about these kinds of things without having to resort to jumping on someone's opinion and categorizing them as being part of a "very small minority" in attempt to minimalize their point of view.

I realize that the focus of Public Relation in MARS seems to be directed at facilitating and maintaining relationships with the local shop keepers, but it is my "minority opinion" that this practice often clouds and/or overshadows the fact that MARS is first and foremost supported by a collective of like minded hobbyists.

politics...I guess there's no escaping them.

Pete, I totally agree with you with regard to coral propagation, and only offered that as an example of the clubs impact on local sales. I just find it odd that one thing can be so completely embraced, while another seems to be considered verboten.
 
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