Maybe Vortech is not the right choice?
- Thread starter Poppy828
- Start date
Poppy828 can I just chime in. I think you are being very hard on ETM right now. They promised a new product and are shipping them out their doors as fast as possible. You can't truly expect a company to completely halt production of a product 100% in order to get some new parts out to other customers. It's clear that they are sending out many more WWD's then the actual pumps.
I think Tim has made it pretty clear that all of the people who have given credit card numbers and such to get on waiting lists have done so with individual VENDORS, not ETM themselves. Since ETM doesn't own or operate any of these stores, how can they control how these stores operate the sale of their product?
If everyone who had an MP40 wanted a WWD right away and thought no one should wait, then ETM would have had to build up the supply in advance which probably would have delayed shipment of these (very much anticipated) drivers by a long time.
It's a simple issue of supply and demand... there is a big demand and they are doing their best to meet it. It is not uncommon for high demand products to go through this process. Ever try buying a Wii? You will still find it difficult, that doesn't mean Nintendo should halt production of every other product they make in order to produce more Wii's, if they did that they would be out of business...
I think Tim has made it pretty clear that all of the people who have given credit card numbers and such to get on waiting lists have done so with individual VENDORS, not ETM themselves. Since ETM doesn't own or operate any of these stores, how can they control how these stores operate the sale of their product?
If everyone who had an MP40 wanted a WWD right away and thought no one should wait, then ETM would have had to build up the supply in advance which probably would have delayed shipment of these (very much anticipated) drivers by a long time.
It's a simple issue of supply and demand... there is a big demand and they are doing their best to meet it. It is not uncommon for high demand products to go through this process. Ever try buying a Wii? You will still find it difficult, that doesn't mean Nintendo should halt production of every other product they make in order to produce more Wii's, if they did that they would be out of business...
Poppy828
Active member
I understand and agree with you ycrazyy. I am not being hard on ETM. I am simply expressing MY concern with what I have seen and heard. Nothing more. Not a bash session by any means. This is the problem with printed words on a screen. You can't see the inflection if any in the words typed.
I am sure the product they supply is great and from what I have seen and been told, it is a very nice piece of equipment and would be a good addition to most setups.
My concern and I will state it again, is why make the existing customers wait? Any waiting lists should have been taken care of first. Meaning, ETM should have instructed the vendors they work with to supply those customers first before placing the items on the shelf or on an internet add. That is not a difficult thing to ask in my opinion. I have been told by my manufacturers the same thing in my business. ETM is being represented by these suppliers, so they should in fact have a say in the distribution of the items being waited on. A little better planning by ETM would have gone a long way in reducing these issues.
I am sure the product they supply is great and from what I have seen and been told, it is a very nice piece of equipment and would be a good addition to most setups.
My concern and I will state it again, is why make the existing customers wait? Any waiting lists should have been taken care of first. Meaning, ETM should have instructed the vendors they work with to supply those customers first before placing the items on the shelf or on an internet add. That is not a difficult thing to ask in my opinion. I have been told by my manufacturers the same thing in my business. ETM is being represented by these suppliers, so they should in fact have a say in the distribution of the items being waited on. A little better planning by ETM would have gone a long way in reducing these issues.
Poppy828, so what if a vendor say takes a waiting list for 200 people. They only pre-order 50 of the WWD's from ETM. Now ETM has no knowledge that this vendor is waiting on an additional 150 WWD's so they make 150 MP40w's instead or ship those 150 WWD's to another vendor. So there are angry customers from this vendor because they never let ETM know, REGARDLESS if ETM told them to ship pre-orders first or not, that there were more WWD's that were required.
A supplier can RECOMMEND (key word here) anything they'd like to a vendor, but that does not mean the vendor has to abide by those recommendations. Take an MSRP for example, it is simply a suggested retail price... And just because a manufacturer / supplier tells their vendors something does not always mean it is right.
As for their service, I have personally dealt with Tim for my pump and his service has been excellent! I have not even gone through the IC channel for service and ETM was more than happy to help me and did so very well.
One last comment before this dead horse is truly beaten... As you say printed words on a screen don't always show everything, you have to remember that people who are unhappy with a product / service are MUCH more likely to voice their opinion then those people that are satisfied.
A supplier can RECOMMEND (key word here) anything they'd like to a vendor, but that does not mean the vendor has to abide by those recommendations. Take an MSRP for example, it is simply a suggested retail price... And just because a manufacturer / supplier tells their vendors something does not always mean it is right.
As for their service, I have personally dealt with Tim for my pump and his service has been excellent! I have not even gone through the IC channel for service and ETM was more than happy to help me and did so very well.
One last comment before this dead horse is truly beaten... As you say printed words on a screen don't always show everything, you have to remember that people who are unhappy with a product / service are MUCH more likely to voice their opinion then those people that are satisfied.
Poppy828
Active member
True again ycrazzy.
I guess there is always the chance that vendors will do what they want. However, the supplier can stop working with that vendor if they can't abide by certain guidelines given.
I.E. I personally know a buddy who has a business and 90% of it is online. A set price to be advertised was instituted by my buddy. A vendor decided to try and increase sales, they would list the pricing cheaper. Well that is clearly against the guidelines in place.
Maybe ETM does not have these types of guidelines, (waiting list first, same price for all vendros, etc.) then this discussion is irrelevant.
Given the fact that ETM knew the shortage for the waiting list was going on as evidence by a thread here on RC, ETM being the concerned company they state they are, could have requested any and all waiting lists from the vendors and even made a post here since there were several that posted, to make it right by them and take care of them personally by shipping straight from Tim since he is the obvious go to guy there.
Again, these are concerns and many arguments can be made in favor for or against ETM. I chose to voice my concern to see for myself the type of service I may or may not receive if I become a customer. Posting here is better than spending close to a Grand for service that may not be up to par.
I guess there is always the chance that vendors will do what they want. However, the supplier can stop working with that vendor if they can't abide by certain guidelines given.
I.E. I personally know a buddy who has a business and 90% of it is online. A set price to be advertised was instituted by my buddy. A vendor decided to try and increase sales, they would list the pricing cheaper. Well that is clearly against the guidelines in place.
Maybe ETM does not have these types of guidelines, (waiting list first, same price for all vendros, etc.) then this discussion is irrelevant.
Given the fact that ETM knew the shortage for the waiting list was going on as evidence by a thread here on RC, ETM being the concerned company they state they are, could have requested any and all waiting lists from the vendors and even made a post here since there were several that posted, to make it right by them and take care of them personally by shipping straight from Tim since he is the obvious go to guy there.
Again, these are concerns and many arguments can be made in favor for or against ETM. I chose to voice my concern to see for myself the type of service I may or may not receive if I become a customer. Posting here is better than spending close to a Grand for service that may not be up to par.
Fuppets
New member
I think you guys need to understand a little about the guys at Ecotech. They are engineers, they design cool stuff. They're not manufactures and not shippers.
They have tried to keep their customer informed on what they are designing, and trying to produce for us. When products go from the design phase to the manucfacture and ship phases sometimes the design has to change. Sometimes it is just to keep the cost down to a level that the consumer can justify the purchase. I believe that is why the remote control that was shown in the MACNA video didn't ship with this product.
They have been keeping us up to date on what these "bumps in the road" were and how they handled them. They didn't "have" to tell any of us anything. I think that they learned from all this that leaking too much information about your new products too early can come around and bite you later.
What they could have done is tell us nothing until 10 thousand of the new WWD's shipped out. They wanted to exchange drivers for those of us that bought into their MP40 early and waited patiently for the WWD. That was a nice gesture, but I don't think it ever made good bussiness sense. What were they going to do with 10 thousand obsolute drivers. I think at first, when they made that offer, they knew the number of pumps that they had shipped, and were willing to take a loss on the new driver for that number of pumps. However, durring the time it took to get these things done the number of pumps out there in use probably increased 10 fold. I know i bought 2 more.
They are still offereing the WWD at a discounted price equal to what the exchange offer would have cost the end user. They have stated that the price on the WWD will go up when it seems that the people "waiting" for these have all gotten them, and the high demand ebbs.
To me customer service is taking care of the customer and the product that he bought. They do that very well. Every issue that is bought up on this board seems to get resolved quickly. The only issue that I haven't seen resolved is that they can't make the WWD's fast enough. Hey, these guys have to sleep too.
Some people have complained about the MP40W's shipping out while they are still waiting for their WWD. What do you expect ETM to do? tell their "new" customers that they can't sell them a pump until everybody else has their WWD's? Or should they send them an "obsolete" pump when they have the new driver sitting right there. They stopped sending the MP40's out a while ago waiting to ship MP40W's.
This has been a bumpy road for them, but I stand behind them 100%. I recomend their product to everybody, including the originator of this trhead.
Just my 2 cents
Shawn
They have tried to keep their customer informed on what they are designing, and trying to produce for us. When products go from the design phase to the manucfacture and ship phases sometimes the design has to change. Sometimes it is just to keep the cost down to a level that the consumer can justify the purchase. I believe that is why the remote control that was shown in the MACNA video didn't ship with this product.
They have been keeping us up to date on what these "bumps in the road" were and how they handled them. They didn't "have" to tell any of us anything. I think that they learned from all this that leaking too much information about your new products too early can come around and bite you later.
What they could have done is tell us nothing until 10 thousand of the new WWD's shipped out. They wanted to exchange drivers for those of us that bought into their MP40 early and waited patiently for the WWD. That was a nice gesture, but I don't think it ever made good bussiness sense. What were they going to do with 10 thousand obsolute drivers. I think at first, when they made that offer, they knew the number of pumps that they had shipped, and were willing to take a loss on the new driver for that number of pumps. However, durring the time it took to get these things done the number of pumps out there in use probably increased 10 fold. I know i bought 2 more.
They are still offereing the WWD at a discounted price equal to what the exchange offer would have cost the end user. They have stated that the price on the WWD will go up when it seems that the people "waiting" for these have all gotten them, and the high demand ebbs.
To me customer service is taking care of the customer and the product that he bought. They do that very well. Every issue that is bought up on this board seems to get resolved quickly. The only issue that I haven't seen resolved is that they can't make the WWD's fast enough. Hey, these guys have to sleep too.
Some people have complained about the MP40W's shipping out while they are still waiting for their WWD. What do you expect ETM to do? tell their "new" customers that they can't sell them a pump until everybody else has their WWD's? Or should they send them an "obsolete" pump when they have the new driver sitting right there. They stopped sending the MP40's out a while ago waiting to ship MP40W's.
This has been a bumpy road for them, but I stand behind them 100%. I recomend their product to everybody, including the originator of this trhead.
Just my 2 cents
Shawn
Poppy828
Active member
Point taken Fuppets.
Do you think though that since they have been behind in the production phases anyway, that the new customers would have written them off if they had to wait another few weeks for the product while ETM serviced the existing customers? I think the existing customers would have had an easier decision to not support ETM any longer than new customers. The demand was obviously there, so the new customers would not have been swayed to change there mind by waiting. Just my HOP.
I don't want people to think that I am simply on here to bash ETM and make them look like an ***. They most certainly are not. They have a great product as you still support and recommend them fuppets as well as many others. I applaud ETM for answering the questions and concerns of everyone on a public forum and they do seem to be pretty readily available for answers.
Planning ahead for this would have been a huge benefit to them and others is all. I still have yet to see one in action in person which has delayed my purchase and then hearing of the not so effecient manner in this upgrade delayed it more. I am on the border as to what will be best for me which is why I posted. I did not post to bring negativity towards them, only to resolve my concerns.
Do you think though that since they have been behind in the production phases anyway, that the new customers would have written them off if they had to wait another few weeks for the product while ETM serviced the existing customers? I think the existing customers would have had an easier decision to not support ETM any longer than new customers. The demand was obviously there, so the new customers would not have been swayed to change there mind by waiting. Just my HOP.
I don't want people to think that I am simply on here to bash ETM and make them look like an ***. They most certainly are not. They have a great product as you still support and recommend them fuppets as well as many others. I applaud ETM for answering the questions and concerns of everyone on a public forum and they do seem to be pretty readily available for answers.
Planning ahead for this would have been a huge benefit to them and others is all. I still have yet to see one in action in person which has delayed my purchase and then hearing of the not so effecient manner in this upgrade delayed it more. I am on the border as to what will be best for me which is why I posted. I did not post to bring negativity towards them, only to resolve my concerns.
reggiepe
Seriously?
I would like to chime in here in defense of Tim and the rest of ETM. I purchased one of these pumps over a year ago and by no control of my own or his, my son's dog destroyed the package that was left on the front porch. The pump was left in at least a dozen pieces...the driver's metal box was cruched with teeth marks and all of the cabling was destroyed. I spoke with Scott from AS and he put me in touch with Tim. He requested the pump to be returned to see what they could do. His response was that it was basically a total loss. Well, imagine how dissapointed I was. A day or two later Tim got back to me and told me that he would set me up with a brand new setup for an ongodly low figure..I couldn't refuse. Now.....I have had an issue with the driver...replaced in two days.....the wet side assembly....replaced in two days. Very noisy prop...complete new bushings and washers to rebuild it. All of this at no cost to me. This is a perfect example of customer satisfaction. I have been in the Marine fish industry for over two decades and have not had one single manufacturer communicate and give the shirts off their backs like ETM.....Kudos to Tim and the crew behind the scenes. Thank You.
chad508
New member
the thing that gets me is that the first few people that saw the post for the controller were allowed to get the controller at cheaper price. i was one of the first to get a pump and now have 3. and just because i wasn't learking the forums i missed out on the first shipment at the lower price. and a few customers admitted to ordering a few controlles even though they had no pumps. i was told when i got my pump that we would be put on a list to be told when they would be available, and would have first dibs. other than this customer service has been great.
melev
Well-known member
Do you ask the same question of every potential purchase you make? Honestly, your innocent questions almost throw this vendor under the bus. The only way to look good in everyones' eyes is for them to promise to move heaven and earth to please every customer.
Asking what is in the contract in a public forum - wow.
Many of us can be armchair quarterbacks and state how we would run the company if it was ours to run.
When pump after pump nuked reef after reef, we all discovered Rio was the common denominator. And while everyone called to complain, they got silence. I don't know of a single case that was resolved. Each person had to choose on their own to buy a different pump if they wanted any sense of security, learning from their mistakes. And there has never been a TAAM vendor forum here on RC that I know of.
If IceCap decided not to fix the VorTech pumps, I'm sure EcoTech would do it themselves. It might not be a 2 day turn around time, but it won't be met with silence as was handled by Taam.
What I would do is irrelevant to how EcoTech chooses to care for their customers. I think what you and others might have wanted was for EcoTech to contact all of their original customers in some way (email, post office) and let them know the wireless drivers were now available and give everyone the option to buy the upgrade or not.
When I have had issues, Tim was quick to resolve it. I believe it when they say that they stand behind their product. And that is the bottom line.
Poppy828
Active member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11098112#post11098112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Do you ask the same question of every potential purchase you make? Honestly, your innocent questions almost throw this vendor under the bus. The only way to look good in everyones' eyes is for them to promise to move heaven and earth to please every customer.
Asking what is in the contract in a public forum - wow.
Many of us can be armchair quarterbacks and state how we would run the company if it was ours to run.
When pump after pump nuked reef after reef, we all discovered Rio was the common denominator. And while everyone called to complain, they got silence. I don't know of a single case that was resolved. Each person had to choose on their own to buy a different pump if they wanted any sense of security, learning from their mistakes. And there has never been a TAAM vendor forum here on RC that I know of.
If IceCap decided not to fix the VorTech pumps, I'm sure EcoTech would do it themselves. It might not be a 2 day turn around time, but it won't be met with silence as was handled by Taam.
What I would do is irrelevant to how EcoTech chooses to care for their customers. I think what you and others might have wanted was for EcoTech to contact all of their original customers in some way (email, post office) and let them know the wireless drivers were now available and give everyone the option to buy the upgrade or not.
When I have had issues, Tim was quick to resolve it. I believe it when they say that they stand behind their product. And that is the bottom line.
I do my research before I invest in a company yes. If that comes down to asking questions, then that is what I do. I fail to see the reason to roll your eyes at me because I asked a question about a contract? I am asked for information on contractural obligations all the time. Maybe in your business you don't see it as well as ETM. I am comfortable answering the questions and/or asking them when it comes to this. I see no harm in asking here.
Not once did I throw them under the bus either Marc. I asked simple questions that have relevance to the given situation. The situation that I researched before I made a decision to purchase or not. Why is it a crime to ask questions in a public forum now? Tim seemed to be fine with my questions or I am sure he would have had something different to tell me or response. I beleive I said multiple times that this was not a bash session or to say that ETM was a horrible company. I have even given them praise for the efforts they have extended to some of the customers.
RC was developed for people to educate themselves on this hobby in full. I am simply exercising this right to ask and educate myself.
melev
Well-known member
And you think asking speifically want is stated in the contract that Icecap & ETM might or might not have is something open for public consumption? Seriously? That is why I rolled my eyes.
One of the biggest lessons my father told me is that you don't have to answer every question asked of you. And one of my relatives did his Ph.D on white noise. We really do suffer from information overload these days.
Myself, if I want to know how long a product is supported, I look for the warranty information. Then once purchased, I date the form and write down the location of my purchase, and staple the receipt to it. If something comes up and I'm within my warranty period, I'll proceed to make the claim.
Yes, this is a big purchase and it is good to proceed with caution. Did you ask for similar information from Tunze or Oceans Motions in their public forums?
One of the biggest lessons my father told me is that you don't have to answer every question asked of you. And one of my relatives did his Ph.D on white noise. We really do suffer from information overload these days.
Myself, if I want to know how long a product is supported, I look for the warranty information. Then once purchased, I date the form and write down the location of my purchase, and staple the receipt to it. If something comes up and I'm within my warranty period, I'll proceed to make the claim.
Yes, this is a big purchase and it is good to proceed with caution. Did you ask for similar information from Tunze or Oceans Motions in their public forums?
Poppy828
Active member
I have used the OM with my last setup and I did as much if not more research with them as I have hear. In fact, Paul (owner of OM) was kind enough to call me and we talked for over an hour on the phone and he answered each and every question I had at the time. This was the first phone call. We spoke 3 more times over the phone before making the purchase. And that was all on his dime too Marc. I was extremely happy with the service provided by him and his product. I had only one issue and that was resolved within minutes by Paul sending me a replacement part at no charge without even having his broken item returned first. I would love to use the OM again, but my new tank was set up in 3 days (much like your upgrade) and I did not have time to do what I wanted to do this go.
As for Tunze, something about the structure and look of the pump has turned me away from using them. They are overwhelming in my opinion on a 4' tank.
I understand that they do not have to answer my questions and that is fine. I still will ask. I respect there decision not to answer the specifics about the contract.
I am with you on the warranty of an item I purchase. My wife and I are the same way. Registration if available is filled out that day and promptly mailed as well as individual folders for each item documenting warranty issues if any and recording dates and times of conversations. We work hard for our money and want what is best for us.
As for Tunze, something about the structure and look of the pump has turned me away from using them. They are overwhelming in my opinion on a 4' tank.
I understand that they do not have to answer my questions and that is fine. I still will ask. I respect there decision not to answer the specifics about the contract.
I am with you on the warranty of an item I purchase. My wife and I are the same way. Registration if available is filled out that day and promptly mailed as well as individual folders for each item documenting warranty issues if any and recording dates and times of conversations. We work hard for our money and want what is best for us.
SALT WATER CRAZ
New member
Ok you lost me hear are you saying that the $75 is the same as the $50 deal?
Cuz I am not a fan of buying $25 paper weights
Or are trying to say that the people like me that stood behind these pumps when thay first came out, and ordered there pumps are paying the same as the people that are getting the new MP40w now?
When I bought my pumps thay came with the old wet sides. That EcoTech changed the design on so thay where qwieter, and last longer. Now I am haveing to pay $35s more on each pump than any one that is getting a new MP40w pump right now. This was clearly a design flaw on EcoTechs part I have frends that did get the new wet side for free. I was never contacted abought it by EcoTech. When I asked abougth this in other threads I was told that I need to call Ice Cap to order the new one for $35. This comes back to customer relations, and why I was never contacted and some owners where. I have did recived a email abought the entire wet side assembly for $90 I also have some frends that didnt get that email. But thay have got diffrent emails in the past from EcoTech.
It would be nice to see EcoTech send out the new wet sides to the people that never where sent the new wet side.
HBtank
Premium Member
I will not let my own impatience cast much of a shadow if any on ETC.
I have been in more than one thread, basically "complaining". Yes, I wish I got it right away. Yes, I can't wait to get my driver. Yes, it sucks watching new customers talk about it while I wait for mine.
But in the end it really does not effect my opinion of the product I bought and their customer service for their products.
I am just impatient and love their products
I have been in more than one thread, basically "complaining". Yes, I wish I got it right away. Yes, I can't wait to get my driver. Yes, it sucks watching new customers talk about it while I wait for mine.
But in the end it really does not effect my opinion of the product I bought and their customer service for their products.
I am just impatient and love their products
