MHLLE...anyone local have any experience with this??

Linda C.

New member
My question is has anybody have fish that have MHLLE and have seen improvement?

I was able to pick up a Marine Head & Lateral Line Erosion fish today. He came from a very loving home by a fellow fish/reef keeper. This is a Regal tang who will be residing in my 120 tank. He will have a tankmate that has the same issue, a Sailfin tang who has erosion and also lacks any color (I am picking the sailfin up on Friday of this week). The sailfin will be coming with his fellow tanks mate, a possible Coney/Atantic Grouper?? (I have to see about getting him identified when he gets here).

I am going to give them a diet to include vitiman C, algae to graze on, keep their water quality up, and not use activated carbon. Their tank is located where there is ALOT of natural sunlight. Also, the sump will include Walt Smith's Fiji Mud.

If you have/had a fish with MHLLE and can share your experience and advice with me I would appreciate it.
 
I had a grouper years ago that developed a severe case of this....at that time it was mostly an unknown disease amongst aquariasts....years later it seems that it can be treated.....tangs are particularly affected and large amounts of veggie matter such as julians sprungs sea veggies have been reported to help. I have a yellow tang that was looking as though it was starting and started using that and he is fine. I also supplement him with formula2 food which is a vegetable food. Hope this helps.....Dave
 
Nopes nothing here. However just a suggestion here, you might want to consider using UV or ozone as an additional therapy treatment. IMHO: I don't buy into the suspicion that activated carbon may somehow contribute to this disease. At least there's no concrete evidence which points to this. The two main culprits are nutrition and water column conditions.
 
Spirilulina enhanced Brine and formula 1 and 2 with some garlic extract and just good water quality and NO STRAY ELECTRICAL CURRENT !

I've found small amounts of A/C leaking into the water from a tear in a power cord, or rusted caseing on a powerhead impeller well can be one of the big causes of this.
 
what do members know of ozone - brand, setting up...that kind of stuff. Anthony Calfo suggest that it's the way to make UV effective. I would like to add it but I struggle with this kind of stuff and could use some help with it.

Also, how can you test for stray electrical current?
 
I thought the stray electrical current thing had been written off as a dead end, but I could be wrong.

I would concentrate on water quality and diet, and forget smoking gun type theorizing.
 
any suggestions regarding Ozone? I am looking to do my two 180's and my 120. I rather get the correct stuff at the beginning and not have to upgrade later.

*edit...ozone and UV combo suggestions/advice please :)
 
There's some very long threads about ozone on RC that will have you blue in the face but fairly conversant on the subject by the time you are done with them...
 
Linda,

First of all, stay away from the tangs unless you want to end up with more tanks in your house. :D They are the reason I have 3 tanks! (I have 6 tangs)

Since you really enjoy bringing sick fish back to good health, I too think you should consider UV. I swear by it and give it full credit for keeping my Achilles Tang ich free. I have a DIY 150 W (high output) for about 400g of water.

I hate to admit it, but I've had a lot of new fish come into my system only to die soon after. Not once have any of those deaths affected the health of the other fish. (Anyone have some wood to knock on?) I really think it's because of the UV. If you search for some old threads by gregt and Bomber, you'll find plenty of info about the type of UV I use.

I use ozone also, but experienced the great results from UV long before adding it. I use a cheap Enaly unit I bought on ebay. You can't regulate the output, but with the high water volume I have, it's sized just about right at 200 mg/h (I think that's what it's rated).

The ozone seems to also improve my skimming and makes water that already seems crystal clear even clearer.
 
I have the Coralife turbo twist on my 180 reef tank now. Fish in that tank are doing fine. I have a new in box coralife turbo twist to put on the 120 when the sump is done. Wasn't sure if this is a better brand that I should consider for the next one (or even exchange the turbo twist before opening it). I still need to get one for the other 180. Any recommendations on brand?
 
Linda, just make sure you install the necessary wattage per gallon on the UV. Also it's supposed to be at a controlled flow for maximum contact time. So be sure to research these factors too.
 
Have hear that the OZone has to be run though carbon to take out any natural impurities from the water that made contact???
also air dryers ???

but for the other stuff, i think a BIG varity of food and algea Algea, i feed my fish over 20 different things (not all at the same time mind u )
All the time a lot of water curret
I have found that i agree with EPSI that the voltage thing is a big much a small short will just wreak havoc on the whole tank, have 2 grounding probes in my tank, would even think of adding a 3rd just to make sure stray voltage is a bad thing....

soaking the leafes of vegies in garlic and selcon will help....

I really think the food is the biggest thing, and i have seen some magizine articles that said the type of lighting was Very important, seems the fish under bright light(MH,VHO examples) as compard to Norm.OutPut tubes, did alot better in the tank.., just normal for threse fish to have alot of bright light(i think it was in part from the UV and the Nautral occurence for the fish to absorb some of the light)(sounds wierd but i know i read a big article in a mgizine some where)

any way hope this helps,

peace
mike
 
After doing a bunch of reading of online forums I decided that grounding probes do more harm than good. If you have no GFCI on the circuit it definitely is worse. Here's a post that covers it I think:

The grounding probe can be plugged to any grounded (three prung receptacle but the circuit(s) feeding the power to the aquarium equipment need to have GFCI installed to protect the aquarist.

A GFCI does not make the ground probe either necessary or un-necessary but a ground probe makes a GFCI necessary.

Here is the long and detailed answer so please stay with me.

There are several possible cases or scenarios of short circuit in an aquarium system.

Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)

b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.

c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.

d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.

So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.

Scenario 2: Short circuit between hot line and neutral on submerged equipment:[B/]

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe: device and line will over heat. if current is high enough breaker will trip but it may take some time 10 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on the quality of the short. Plastic parts or rubber seals on the device may melt creating a secondary short reviewed under scenario 1 and releasing toxic chemicals into the water also copper wire may get exposed also releasing copper sulphate and other copper compounds to the water. Large mortality of critter is most probable.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: GFCI will not activate even if a secondary short to water is created as the water is not grounded and there will be no leakage current to create a current un-balance between hot and neutral so GFCI will not be able to detect the situation. Here as in 2a above (as well as 2c below) you are dependant on the breaker.

c) Ground probe installed but no GFCI: Same situation as in 2a above but if a secondary short is created current will be established killing the tank inhabitants but just probably faster than the toxic chemicals or copper compounds. Here you are dependant on the breaker.

d) GFCI and ground Probe installed: If a secondary short is created this will be same as 1d above, GFCI will trip reliving both the short circuit and disconnecting the power to the device probably preventing or reducing the damage by chemicals or copper. If no secondary short develops again you depend on the breaker.

Here again the safest alternative will be GFCI and ground probe installed although will not be effective if a secondary short to water is not established. Note that as mentioned above a short from hot to neutral may create a fire as the wires may get hot enough to initiate it.

There is a new device in the market that will replace the breaker and designed for this kind of fault. It is called an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) This device will fulfill the functions of a breaker but while a breaker rely on the heat of the wires created by the short circuit which makes it slow an AFCI detects the arc on the short circuit acting immediately. For full protection under scenario 2 an AFCI in the main panel plus a GFCI in the outlet and a ground probe in the tank will provide for full protection.

Scenario 3: Short circuit from hot to a metal part of a non-submerged device and there is no current to trip the device as the metal body is not grounded:[B/] This is typical of a lighting fixture to whome one of the light bulb wires toches the reflector or the metalic hood or when some of the wiring of external pumps short to the pumps body and the body of the pump is not grounded.

a) No ground Probe and no GFCI installed: As the fault is external to the aquarium the aquarium does not get energized and no effect. If you touch the device depending on how well insulated from ground you are (rubber soles vs bare foot, globes vs bare hands etc) you may just get jolted or may get electrocuted.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: If you are touching the water and touch the device the GFCI will trip even if the short is within the external device. Typical of this fault is when a termial on a lamp in the hood gets shorted to the hood itself via salt creep. you are working in the water while you touch the hood with your arm or shoulder.

c) Ground probe and no GFCI: This is one of the the main reasons why probes shall not be installed unless a GFCI is also installed. The water will be perfectly grounded. If you are working in the water and touch the device you will get badly shocked or electrocuted even is you yourself are electrically insulated by the use of rubber soles or such.

d) Ground Probe and GFCI: GFCI will trip as soon as you touch the body of the device saving you once more.

For this scenario the safest will be 3b and 3d above. To make this a really safe situation: i) Use only devices installed with three prong plugs they usually ground the body using the third prong.
ii) Replace the plug and wire of any device to a three pong plug and connect the green wire to the body of the device. (The metal hood, the body of the ballast, the casing of the pump etc.)
Note that many power heads only use 2 prong plugs, if possible select one with three prongs. (Maxi jets used to have three prong wires and plugs but they were replaced with a lighter insulation wire and two prong plugs. It is still unclear to me why. Cost?, Did not want to potentially ground the water? Only they know)

Scenario 4: Short from hot to neutral or grounded body of an external device:[B/]

Under this scenario for all cases you will be dependant on the breaker. If the current is high but the breaker is slow on acting there might be a fire. The use of an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter instead of a breaker will reduce the fire possibility.

Scenario 5: Short from Neutral to water:[B/] As usually the neutral wire is grounded either at the outside were the wires enter the house or at the main nothing happens unless this neutral grounding is not perfect some small voltage may develop creating the following situation:

a) No GFCI and No Probe: nothing will happen, you may detect small voltage of the water to ground, if you touch the water you may feel a small shock if you are not insulated enough.

b) GFCI but no ground probe: if you touch the water and the voltage is high enough to generate at least 5 milliamps the GFCI will trip.

c) Ground probe but no GFCI: The small voltage may create a permanent small current, this may be enough to start killing the most sensitive critters, (Pods and Snails) and create coral RTN over long term.

d) GFCI and Ground Probe: same as 5b above. If the current is below 5 milliamps it may still create a small current which may affect the tank inhabitants but in a lesser degree given the smaller current level than 5c above.

So in summary overall the safest for the aquarist will be the installation of AFCI, GFCI and Ground Probe. The safest for the inhabitants will be AFCI and GFCI without ground probe. This is the reason why many aquarist do not use ground probes (but will always use GFCIs) specially traveling ones that stay away for extended periods of time. If you have a remote alarm system installed that may page you or send you an E-Mail in case of a fault (Like the aqua controller from Neptune Systems) you shall have no doubts and have your Probe installed with your GFCI's)

Opposite the most dangerous situation is not having at least a GFCI. By the way many states, city or county electrical codes require installation of GFCIs on any location where electrical equipment may be exposed to water like outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, aquariums, spas etc. If this is the case and there is an accident or fire the insurance company MAY NOT PAY. so be warned.

I hope this long explanation may save some of us out there from at least a couple of jolts. By the way it is not smart (Trying to be nice an not saying plainly stupid) to use one-self as a test subject. I had a friend who got a small shock while testing a hood, he kept on shcocking himself trying to find out where the short was! Get a multi tester is you need to do this.

Enjoy and happy reefing!


from this thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=504227
 
"After doing a bunch of reading of online forums I decided that grounding probes do more harm than good. If you have no GFCI on the circuit it definitely is worse."

OK suffice to say this issue remains controversial. However I am with you on this, Dan. I don't use grounds on my tank nor any other in my collection.
 
I find that wierd i have always used ground probes and gfci when ever possible now with my big system..........

Before for 5 yrs just used a grounding probe...

Now May be im differnt but i feel the use of a ground probe cant be a bad thing, but again there are a lot of opionions floating around on this subject.....

any way

peace
mike
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8357807#post8357807 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DanConnor
I thought the stray electrical current thing had been written off as a dead end, but I could be wrong.

I would concentrate on water quality and diet, and forget smoking gun type theorizing.
]

I once saw a yellow tang at a store called Two Turtles in Akron Ohio. THe fish was 7 years old. and was the sole survivor of a severe voltage short. It had lost all of the tissue from its dorsal and pectoral fins. It kind of resembled a mono angel. It did not however show any sign of lateral line erosion that I can remember. However I was new at the hoby aspect of this so I wasn't really looking for MHLLE at the time.

Just an observation.
 
Back
Top