Mineral mud/Miracle Mud

Reefvet said:
The folks in marketing love people like you. :love1:
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So you're saying you never try new things?

I see a lot of judgments passed on items over pure speculation. Or are you saying you've tried it and kept a strict log on your interactions with your tank and parameters and a record of all the changes you've done while under that system?

Marketing is one thing, writing off a product because some random people on the internet talk down about something they never used is another.

I used Right Now Bacteria few years back.(and it worked juuuuust fine) People said it was snake oil pure and simple.

Guess what?

Carbon dosing caught on shortly after. What does that prove?
All the people saying it didn't work were COMPLETELY WRONG.
 
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Carbon dosing a few years ago? I started it in 2005, many others long before that, and there is actual science at work with carbon dosing, the bacteria are carbon limited so feeding them what they need to proliferate is not the same as packaged garden soil with unsubstantiated claims and actual analysis to show what the content is.

I have never tried to drink battery acid, because I know what is in it, and simple reasoning shows there is no advantage in drinking battery acid, even if it might be something new and untried. Sometimes common sense has to govern actions. :beer:
 
By your standards of 'there is actual science at work' is more acceptable than others stating things don't work because of X and they never tried it. They don't NEED to try it to know it doesn't work.

How about aragonite sand then? There's a science behind it. But information has been skewed. Aragonite won't start to dissolve until there's a low ph. (most of our stuff is dead at that ph)

So how do people go on to say there's anything different between aragonite and MM?

At least it seems that MM would release minerals that can be used vs aragonite won't.

I was merely responding to a snarky comment that I'm a fool. Right? That's what he was saying by saying marketing people love me? That surely isn't based from anything is it.

At least I acknowledge all the facts versus giving advice based from my inexperience.
 
This topic is Miracle Mud, not aragonite. At some point people have to look at what is actually in it, see that it isn't even of oceanic origins, as the mfg. states, and based on what is in it, what is there of use? The only thing that I see that may be useful is the iron content, but if iron is lacking in your tank, there are massively cheaper ways to add it, and only it, and controlling the dose, than adding garden soil to your tank.

There is no shame is admitting to having been duped by clever marketing, the shame lies in not being able to realize when we have been duped. The good news with this product is it being mostly inert will do real no damage to your tank, just your wallet.
 
Wow. You're all still on this huh? :headwally:
I believe you are wrong, but you can believe what you want.
We get it. You don't like the product. You've made it somehow personal for you.
Like you said, you made a career in marketing. It's your thing.
Leave it be. :deadhorse:

To the new guys, re-read the posts. We've got some quality bickering going on here. Plus some good information exchanges. Though the OP left it about half-way through I think.

P.S. I look forward to bickering some more if it helps others in various topics. Wadayouthink guys?

By all...:wavehand:
 
Lol Scuba... I guess I did see where he said he was in marketing.

All in all, I've seen some great tanks running miracle mud, so I'm not gonna write it off.
Does it actually keep levels of other minerals in check? I could see how it does, or it doesn't. But I have yet to setup a system that uses it, so I won't judge.

I've seen a lot of products that don't EXACTLY do what they promise, but they have to do something in the direction they state, otherwise that's false advertising. Usually people jump at false advertising suits very quickly.

I suggest if anyone truly thinks it's complete snake oil, start a class-action suit and put your money where your mouth is. I guess we'll find out through the courts whether or not it does what it says, because I know a lot of people who ARE experts in various shades of the aquarium/bio industry and they choose not to even get on forums because of the mass of people who call things snake oil with a high school education. (Even some of the supposed phd's on fish forums talk down about every single thing that comes across the discussion, so that means everything in the industry is snake oil, or they're just full of themselves)

Either way, this seems like a better medium for denitrification than sand correct? (if nothing else works in it)
 
Some of the best tanks I've ever seen use it. They do not rely on it exclusively, but the owners would not start the tank without it.

My opinion is that it's worth the cost. Opinions are free here.
Or is it, [opinions are like armpits]?

Daniel. :spin3:
 
d2mini said:
I've tried it. Fiji Mud, too.
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(sorry, would leave this thread alone because it's gone beyond pure discussion)

What was your experience with it d2mini?
My main curiosity with it has always been potassium and alkalinity? (do they stay up ppm wise, or is it just a buffer to prevent fast crashes?)

Apologies if I missed a previous reply~
 
My experience using both in my sumps (in different setups, not the same tank) is absolutely nothing. No difference that I noticed either way. I have the Fiji mud now which I chose only because I wanted a mud consistency for mangroves and macros. The only thing I have noticed, that may or may not be related, is that my fuge with the mud gets crazy hair algae and it's nowhere else in my system. But that could be due to fish keeping it under control elsewhere.
 
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Kungpaoshizzi said:
Lol Scuba... I guess I did see where he said he was in marketing.

Don't forget manufacturing, distribution and bringing new products to market. Though it was not hobby related, marketing is marketing, it works when you can convince people to believe.

All in all, I've seen some great tanks running miracle mud, so I'm not gonna write it off.

Have you seen any great tanks without it? The common denominator is great husbandry, not gimmicks. The fact that the majority of the best tanks in the world do not rely on MM should point out that the product is not necessary. Read all of the posts here and in the archives and you will see how many people noticed zero difference when they removed the mud. When you have the benefit of years of other people's experiences the picture can become a little more clear, and less muddy.

Does it actually keep levels of other minerals in check? I could see how it does, or it doesn't. But I have yet to setup a system that uses it, so I won't judge.

I've seen a lot of products that don't EXACTLY do what they promise, but they have to do something in the direction they state, otherwise that's false advertising. Usually people jump at false advertising suits very quickly.

It is IMO better to educate rather than litigate.

I suggest if anyone truly thinks it's complete snake oil, start a class-action suit and put your money where your mouth is. I guess we'll find out through the courts whether or not it does what it says, because I know a lot of people who ARE experts in various shades of the aquarium/bio industry and they choose not to even get on forums because of the mass of people who call things snake oil with a high school education. (Even some of the supposed phd's on fish forums talk down about every single thing that comes across the discussion, so that means everything in the industry is snake oil, or they're just full of themselves)

Lawsuits rarely solve anything, they just make lawyers wealthy. It is probably much better to let people see what is in a product and let them decide if their own research will let them see any benefits to a product. Education should be our goal, not litigation.

It is true that many of the "experts" in the hobby avoid forums, yet once upon a time those "experts" were here. The reasons they left are mostly irrelevant, and many of them have done good things, some not so good and most are money motivated, which is understandable but brings in question a lot of things. There are some who now won't even correspond with you unless you pay them first. The ones who still do frequent forums have no money motivation and do it because they love the hobby. I trust their opinion much more than those who are worried about whether they can get funded for their next project.

Either way, this seems like a better medium for denitrification than sand correct? (if nothing else works in it)
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Truth be told, I haven't seen much from the creator, in media form anyway, in a while. The product continues to sell, but I think he has re-focused on a more personal touch to his, and his clients tanks. I would be thankful to see him in a more public setting to disperse some myths, and clarify some things on his method. MACNA would have been fun.

Yes I have seen plenty of tanks running all sorts of different things.
His product is an aide to do it "better". It's a tool to be used in connection with good husbandry. It's not inherently good or bad. It's how you use a tool that gives an outcome you like.
Many people are satisfied with good enough, and would not know if something is more or less healthy just by observing. Many people who keep using it consistently are satisfied with an outcome they consider "better". These people also frequent the forum, and do so for their own passion for the hobby. They're more than willing to share freely, even if they do sometimes direct an individual to a seller they trust.

Daniel. :cool:
 
Sirreal63, you bring up good points, but bottom line, if you think it's a scam, you'll have NO problem suing them.

Because after all, no amount of marketing can cover up a scam. You downplay a lawsuit because they rarely solve anything and just make lawyers money? I think reality says different..

D2mini makes me have second thoughts as to the validity of the product, but at least he's used it. You just sound like a marketing guy trying to downplay one product to sell another :)

After all, like I said, if it's a scam, why does nobody care enough about the people in the hobby to get a suit going? Instead they "just let them decide for themselves"?

;)

There's nothing worse than a naysayer that can't backup their claims and divert all discussions to something as frivolous as marketing hype.
 
The product does have some legitimate uses, as I have said many times, such as a growing medium for seagrasses or other aquatic plants, because of the iron content. I have nothing to sell, my only goal is to make sure people at least are armed with the information about the product that has been available for over a decade. It is too easy for people to do virtually no research and trust what their LFS tells them. What you choose to do with that information is up to you.

What you are not seeing is a lawsuit would be fruitless, even if won they would only change the labeling, and educating directly to those who ask is a much better approach. The "product" is mostly inert and causes no harm (except for those who managed to grow an algae farm in their tank), but also offers little benefit to a reef tank.

Some of us care enough about the hobby to try and educate, that is why we are here after all of these years. Those who have been in the hobby a long time could easily just ignore the needs of others, and many do, but some of us are here to try and help, even when those whom we are trying to help are hard headed. We face it every day, but if just a little of this gets through to someone reading who is considering the product, then it is a worthwhile discussion, it also keeps the two independent analysis of the product out there for others to see. That is what makes it worthwhile to interject the analysis of the product in these threads.
 
Hard-headed? You? Noooooooo....

Oh wait....
let's see who's head is harder?
Just call me Goku....:wildone:


BTW. I agree about the lawyers. Too many of them out there..
 
Kungpao, go back and read post 58, it is how it is done, and it is how MM came to be. You cannot successfully sell a system without a product claimed to be integral to the success of the system. This is where repeat customers come from.

I will freely admit I am hard headed and also a member of Crotchety Old Man's Club. There are far too many products (many repackaged existing products, insert your favorite Brightwell or Kent product here) in this hobby with silly prices that only take money from the reefer.

No argument Dan, the last thing this hobby needs is lawyers messing around in it.
 
sirreal63 said:
The product does have some legitimate uses, as I have said many times, such as a growing medium for seagrasses or other aquatic plants, because of the iron content. I have nothing to sell, my only goal is to make sure people at least are armed with the information about the product that has been available for over a decade. It is too easy for people to do virtually no research and trust what their LFS tells them. What you choose to do with that information is up to you.

What you are not seeing is a lawsuit would be fruitless, even if won they would only change the labeling, and educating directly to those who ask is a much better approach. The "product" is mostly inert and causes no harm (except for those who managed to grow an algae farm in their tank), but also offers little benefit to a reef tank.

Some of us care enough about the hobby to try and educate, that is why we are here after all of these years. Those who have been in the hobby a long time could easily just ignore the needs of others, and many do, but some of us are here to try and help, even when those whom we are trying to help are hard headed. We face it every day, but if just a little of this gets through to someone reading who is considering the product, then it is a worthwhile discussion, it also keeps the two independent analysis of the product out there for others to see. That is what makes it worthwhile to interject the analysis of the product in these threads.
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Well said.
 
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