Mr Controversary is back at it :D Answer me This

[kydsexy]

SO, i've read about industrial skimmers and the home aquarium skimmers for Marine Aquariums.

"A protein skimmer is one of
the most important pieces of filtration equipment on any marine aquarium. We’re sure you’ll be impressed with the performance of this filtration device, and that your saltwater aquarium will benefit from the unit’s efficient removal of waste substances."

Just to clarify this, can anyone tell me why protein skimmers are used on marine aquariums and not on freshwater aquariums? Am I correct in saying that FW tanks contain the same trace elements in saltwater, and that in both systems the fish/plants/inverts/corals/etc. use the trace elements although in different ways. In both systems, all organisms create waste. Since the skimmer removes elements, compounds, and waste why is it so necessary for "Reefs?" Why the live rock instead of HOB filters to remove waste? And since we have the LR, is it safe to say that we are not using sufficient LR to manage the waste? In using a protein skimmer, do you (anybody using a skimmer) believe that the skimmate being removed is beneficial? I read a thread a little earlier about recycling the skimmate, why remove it in the first place?

feel free to pm me with answers and/or post the answers on this thread

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just to clarify this, can anyone tell me why protein skimmers are used on marine aquariums and not on freshwater aquariums?

I'm not sure it will clarify your main points, but skimming does not work as well as in fresh water for two primary reasons:

Organics are often more soluble in fresh than seawater, so are less likely to be skimmed out

and

Small bubbles are easier to make technically in seawater than in fresh, allowing the same skimmer design to produce much more air/water interface for organic absorption.

Many marine organisms produce organic toxins. I do not know if such toxin production is as prevalent in freshwater aquariums, so the need to remove organics may not be as high.

Also, phosphate is particularly problematic to calcifying organisms such as corals and coralline algae. It is not nearly so problematic in freshwater systems, where it is even used as a buffer in some cases.

Also, lighting is often brighter in many reef tanks than in many freshwater tanks (obviously not all), so elevated nutrients might lead to algae problems faster.

These articles may be of interest:

What is Skimming?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm


from the first one:

Why does skimming work better in saltwater than in freshwater?

There are two fundamental reasons that skimming is more effective in seawater than in freshwater. One is the reduced solubility of organics, especially hydrophobic ones. Because many organics are less soluble in saltwater than in fresh, they are more easily squeezed out of it to an air/water interface, and collected as foam. This is the basis for the well-known salting-out effect of proteins. Quoting from a basic biochemistry text: "At sufficiently high ionic strength a protein may be almost completely precipitated from solution, an effect called salting-out."

A second reason for less efficient skimming of freshwater relates to bubble formation and coalescence. It turns out that air bubbled into seawater forms smaller bubbles than if the same device bubbled into freshwater.1-4 The possible reasons for this have been discussed in the scientific literature, but the exact reason is not universally agreed upon.

Despite the fact that skimmers usually produce larger bubbles in freshwater, and that organics are often more soluble in freshwater, it is not impossible to skim freshwater. Rivers from certain areas of the northeastern United States sometimes have foam on them, which comes from tree sap and other natural organics that enter the water. They have a low solubility in water, and are easily collected as foam in a natural skimming action.

 

[ReefWreak]

oooo Mr Controversary got serrrrrved

Just kidding.

The most basic demonstration is when you clean your skimmer out in freshwater by itself. It never can get a foam head on it because of the surface tension of the fresh water (Randy stated that there are differing scientific ideas as to why the bubbles are smaller in SW vs. FW, this could be one). Same reason it doesn't make small bubbles the same way.

Randy lays down the law once again

 

[kydsexy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11597952#post11597952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Just to clarify this, can anyone tell me why protein skimmers are used on marine aquariums and not on freshwater aquariums?

I'm not sure it will clarify your main points, but skimming does not work as well as in fresh water for two primary reasons:

Organics are often more soluble in fresh than seawater, so are less likely to be skimmed out

and

Small bubbles are easier to make technically in seawater than in fresh, allowing the same skimmer design to produce much more air/water interface for organic absorption.

Many marine organisms produce organic toxins. I do not know if such toxin production is as prevalent in freshwater aquariums, so the need to remove organics may not be as high.

Also, phosphate is particularly problematic to calcifying organisms such as corals and coralline algae. It is not nearly so problematic in freshwater systems, where it is even used as a buffer in some cases.

Also, lighting is often brighter in many reef tanks than in many freshwater tanks (obviously not all), so elevated nutrients might lead to algae problems faster.

These articles may be of interest:

What is Skimming?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm


from the first one:

Why does skimming work better in saltwater than in freshwater?

There are two fundamental reasons that skimming is more effective in seawater than in freshwater. One is the reduced solubility of organics, especially hydrophobic ones. Because many organics are less soluble in saltwater than in fresh, they are more easily squeezed out of it to an air/water interface, and collected as foam. This is the basis for the well-known salting-out effect of proteins. Quoting from a basic biochemistry text: "At sufficiently high ionic strength a protein may be almost completely precipitated from solution, an effect called salting-out."

A second reason for less efficient skimming of freshwater relates to bubble formation and coalescence. It turns out that air bubbled into seawater forms smaller bubbles than if the same device bubbled into freshwater.1-4 The possible reasons for this have been discussed in the scientific literature, but the exact reason is not universally agreed upon.

Despite the fact that skimmers usually produce larger bubbles in freshwater, and that organics are often more soluble in freshwater, it is not impossible to skim freshwater. Rivers from certain areas of the northeastern United States sometimes have foam on them, which comes from tree sap and other natural organics that enter the water. They have a low solubility in water, and are easily collected as foam in a natural skimming action.

haha being served is not an option although he gives me a great answer on skimmers themselves, he doesn't answer the question
working as a limnologist for 2 years while in college, most of your facts about organic toxins, element concentrations, are correct but do not fully pertain to my question. i understand "salting out" but WHY ARE PROTEIN SKIMMERS USED?!? along with why they aren't necessary in FW systems (that's the side argument)

1+1=2, 12+12=24, 100+100=200
nutrients+light=algae, alot of nutrients+alot of light=alot of alge

last i checked, phosphates where much more prevalent in freshwater ecosystems, last i checked tons of aquatic plants create organic toxins, and last i checked making small bubbles was not an issue in our world (psi) lol

back to the main question, what are the benefits of protein skimming that water changes don't cure. precipitation of organic compounds happen in all ecosystems, and it can happen farely fast in aquariums also (does protein skimmers stop this?) usually when you're having a hard time maintaining calcium levels, it's not being used up, but being precipitated within the system. this happens with phosphates as well protein skimming removes organics as well as inorganics, but so do water changes

touche Randy

 

[kydsexy]

i love smart people! i also want personal reasons, and not scientific reasons, as this has not been proven to any means at this moment in time

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i also want personal reasons, and not scientific reasons, as this has not been proven to any means at this moment in time


Sorry, I can't tell what that means. You want me to prove that you need a skimmer? Or give nonscientific, personal reasons for wanting one?

FWIW, I will add aeration to my list. It is a very important reason that I use it. Equilibration of carbon dioxide is very difficult, and my skimmer, and skimmers in general, helps a lot.

 

[kydsexy]

lol, just tell me why YOU have a skimmer. i understand what a skimmer does and the method in which it works.

 

[stugray]

kydsexy,

I can tell you why I have a skimmer: Because of the nastiest crap ( literally ) that I have ever smelled being pulled from the tank daily. I have changed some nasty diapers in my day, but none of that compares to what I can pull from my tank in just one day ( I feed heavily ).

SO..... the evidence speaks for itself..... I could send you a jar of it to 'sample' if you like.

Do you think we should leave that stuff in our tank when we can remove it easily by skimming?

Also - of course you can mitigate the effects of organics build up by just doing water changes, but salt mixture costs $$$ skimming is nearly free except for the initial cost of the equipment.

Stu

 

[Sk8r]

The ocean has a skimmer.
It's called surf.
When the froth flies, that is skimmate...and it contains just what you think it'd contain: waste. Most natural thing in the world.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

just tell me why YOU have a skimmer. i understand what a skimmer does and the method in which it works.

I have a skimmer because of the many things it does that I detail in the article. If all it did was aeration alone, I'd keep it. Since it also reduces organics and nutrients and yellowing of the water, that's an important bonus.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. i understand what a skimmer does and the method in which it works.

Do you? Then why ask the questions you did in the first post? There seem a lot of misunderstandings expressed there.

Just being a troll?

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

People mostly skim because it helps export excess nutrients/organic compounds that would otherwise collect in our closed systems and pollute the water and lead to problems such as pH/alkalinity decline, phosphate build-up, algae blooms, etc.

Why not just do water changes? Because salt ain't cheap, water changes are typically tedious chores (unless you do continuous), and large water changes can cause parameter swings that will hurt livestock. Efficient protein skimming effectively reduces the amount of water changing one would need to keep good water quality.
Why not just add more live rock? Live rock is not a substitute for nutrient export and there are obvious space concerns.
Why not use mechanical filtration? Protein skimming is easier to deal with (no changing of filter cartridges) and doesn't have the potential for being a "nitrate factory."
Why not use more carbon/other chemical filtration? Carbon gets used up really quickly and it is difficult to know when you need to change it (aside from simply changing it weekly). Other chemical media can work (like Purigen), but IMO protein skimming makes a much bigger difference and in the end is easier to deal with.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The troll has been served...

Hrmm that makes me kinda hungry for ham for some reason.

kydesy,

If you can come up with an efficient and reliable freshwater skimmer, then you will be able to make money. A FW tank will not survicve without frequent water changes and mechanical filtration.

 

[Ooulophilia]

On a side note, a year ago I designed and built a large pond, and had a big skimmer lying around so put it on simply for improved aeration. After the install, with some playing around with the pump, this thing is pulling out quite a bit of skimmate. Granted, this is a heavily stocked pond, not an aquarium, but it does show that skimmers could have a role in FW.

 

[GreshamH]

I've seen protein skimmers used on multi million dollar koi ponds as well as at freshwater wholesalers. RK2 sells a unit for F/W or at least they used to. The neck is made up of a bunch of smaller tubes.

FWIW I'm not going to debate or list why I use a skimmer. That just sounds silly to me The facts provided thus far by Randy should about cover any grounds :lol:

 

[Justinandkrista]

I think Randy Holmes-Farley put it well. SW fish live in non polluted water, large oceans that are very pure. FW fish have survived in smaller lakes, ponds, ect that have more risk of pollution. I would think they have developed a bigger immunity. FW fish survive not needing skimmer clean water.

 

[RONCGIZMO]

On a side note: I remember hearing a long time ago that the skimmer was originally made for FW and was adapted to SW..however I can't recall the source...

 

[kydsexy]

people people people they make skimmers for FreshWater currently

Why the live rock instead of HOB filters to remove waste? And since we have the LR, is it safe to say that we are not using sufficient LR to manage the waste? In using a protein skimmer, do you (anybody using a skimmer) believe that the skimmate being removed is beneficial? I read a thread a little earlier about recycling the skimmate, why remove it in the first place?


^^^those are the questions is everyone using skimmers for the same reasons as randy (if so, randy that makes your a role model lol)

example: BeanAnimal looks up to you
kydesy,

If you can come up with an efficient and reliable freshwater skimmer, then you will be able to make money. A FW tank will not survicve without frequent water changes and mechanical filtration.

can SW tanks suffice without frequent water changes and mechanical filtration?! that point sucks if you agree with Randy then you need frequent water changes and mechanical filtration!

stop just agreeing with Randy and Prove your own point

"I think Randy Holmes-Farley put it well. SW fish live in non polluted water, large oceans that are very pure. FW fish have survived in smaller lakes, ponds, ect that have more risk of pollution. I would think they have developed a bigger immunity. FW fish survive not needing skimmer clean water"

are you saying the ocean isn't polluted? are you saying salmonids aren't sensitive?

GreshamH, why make a post, just to agree with Randy lol. I get his point of view. I want others. I highly doubt that anybody other than Randy thought of his POV

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

those are the questions


Fine. I''ll address these new questions one at a time.

Why the live rock instead of HOB filters to remove waste?

Live rock does not do anything useful for the types of waste that skimmers remove. Live rock helps with ammonia removal to nitrogen gas. It does nothing for organics or phosphate. Skimmers do many things, but absolutely nothing for ammonia and subsequent parts of the nitrogen cycle. So they are unrelated, IMO.


And since we have the LR, is it safe to say that we are not using sufficient LR to manage the waste?

If you have ammonia, then you definitely need more live rock. If you have excessive nitrate, it is possible that more live rock might help. No other parameter problems are helped by live rock.

In using a protein skimmer, do you (anybody using a skimmer) believe that the skimmate being removed is beneficial?

No. I do not believe that anything significantly useful is removed by normal skimming. That said, some folks think that certain organics or particulates may be beneficial to feed certain types of organisms (filter feeders, for example), and in that case you could potentially overskim. Still, some skimming would be useful, but not perhaps with the worlds largest skimmer.

I read a thread a little earlier about recycling the skimmate, why remove it in the first place?

The point was to return some of the water, not any of the organics.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

can SW tanks suffice without frequent water changes and mechanical filtration?! that point sucks if you agree with Randy then you need frequent water changes and mechanical filtration!

Is that what you conclude from what I wrote? I do not claim a marine system cannot operate without a skimmer. Many do.

That said, I do believe that frequent water changes are useful. But it has nothing to do with skimming at all.