Mr4000 is back but w/o tank
- Thread starter Mr.4000
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AquariumObsessed:
A dehumidifier is a great idea. They are cheap, consume little power, dries and cleans air and return some of the energy lost in the evaporation process.
More about the humidity issue:
Anybody who build large tanks should be aware of this and deal with it. It is a very simple problem to solve, but people haven't been aware of the problem. Placing a reef tank in the main airstream of a house is like turning the whole house into a sauna. Brute force approaches like using the AC and ventilation of the whole house to dry the air are clumsy and expensive in hot climates. In cold climates where you don't have AC it can be catastrophic. The solution is, as VegasMike did, to build the tank in a room that is air thight from the rest of the house. It sounds a bit difficult, but it's not. In cold climates this is part of the standard building technique anyway. In Norway it's not even legal to build an exterior wall without air sealing it completetly from the inside of the building. This is because when hot inside air enters the wall vapor condensates in the wall creating a moisture problem that makes the wall rot. The sealing is done with a special type of plastic foil that is folded up on rolls so that it is 4 meters wide. It's cheap and efficient to set up. When you build a large tank. Set up interior walls around it so that it comes in its own room. Seal the walls with plastic before plating with some water resistant material and install a separate ventilation system in the room. Thats all there is to it. The vapor must stay in the tank room. It has no buisness to do in other parts of the house.
A dehumidifier is a great idea. They are cheap, consume little power, dries and cleans air and return some of the energy lost in the evaporation process.
More about the humidity issue:
Anybody who build large tanks should be aware of this and deal with it. It is a very simple problem to solve, but people haven't been aware of the problem. Placing a reef tank in the main airstream of a house is like turning the whole house into a sauna. Brute force approaches like using the AC and ventilation of the whole house to dry the air are clumsy and expensive in hot climates. In cold climates where you don't have AC it can be catastrophic. The solution is, as VegasMike did, to build the tank in a room that is air thight from the rest of the house. It sounds a bit difficult, but it's not. In cold climates this is part of the standard building technique anyway. In Norway it's not even legal to build an exterior wall without air sealing it completetly from the inside of the building. This is because when hot inside air enters the wall vapor condensates in the wall creating a moisture problem that makes the wall rot. The sealing is done with a special type of plastic foil that is folded up on rolls so that it is 4 meters wide. It's cheap and efficient to set up. When you build a large tank. Set up interior walls around it so that it comes in its own room. Seal the walls with plastic before plating with some water resistant material and install a separate ventilation system in the room. Thats all there is to it. The vapor must stay in the tank room. It has no buisness to do in other parts of the house.
AquariumObsessed
In Memoriam
thanks norskfisk,
So far this is what I have done...
I have statred construction in the corner of the basement. The fishroom will consist of 2 existing walls and 2 newly constructed walls. I have finished closing 3 walls so far. Each wall consists of the following layers:
* 2x4
* Vapor Barrier plastic
* Green moisture wallboard
* Moisture resistant primer
* Moisture resistant paint
I figure this is the most I can do...I plan to follow the same procedure on the ceiling and 1 remaining wall. I guess my dilema now is to do woth the ventilation system. It is my next step in the construction process and I have not had experience with such a large system. I have purchased a 70 pint de-humidiifer and will run that in the room. Currently I am torn between getting an HRV or just a large exhaust fan or both???
Which models should I buy?
CFM??
How big a return vent do I need?? Wont this cool the room alot in the winter?
Thanks
So far this is what I have done...
I have statred construction in the corner of the basement. The fishroom will consist of 2 existing walls and 2 newly constructed walls. I have finished closing 3 walls so far. Each wall consists of the following layers:
* 2x4
* Vapor Barrier plastic
* Green moisture wallboard
* Moisture resistant primer
* Moisture resistant paint
I figure this is the most I can do...I plan to follow the same procedure on the ceiling and 1 remaining wall. I guess my dilema now is to do woth the ventilation system. It is my next step in the construction process and I have not had experience with such a large system. I have purchased a 70 pint de-humidiifer and will run that in the room. Currently I am torn between getting an HRV or just a large exhaust fan or both???
Which models should I buy?
CFM??
How big a return vent do I need?? Wont this cool the room alot in the winter?
Thanks
AquariumObsessed:
Sounds right what you have done there. Maybe insulating the walls would be good too. Because if the walls are colder than the air in the tank room then there will be lots of condensation. Insulation will seal the tank room from the rest of the house thermally. Could be a good thing.
If you do the room sealing well then it shouldn't be necessary with a heavy ventilation system. But I don't feel competent to make any guesses about its size. The idea of having lot's of ventilation in the tankroom is not very appealing in a cold climate since it wastes energy. The tank room should be kept warm and humid. After all it is only a problem when the humidity leaves the tank room. Everything in there can get wet anyway.
The ideal solution in terms of energy efficiency is to have little ventilation from the tank room and a big chiller standing *outside* the tank room. Thus the chiller sucks energi from the tank and dissipates it in the house. The energy from the lamps is then used to heat the house. So you get energy reuse. This works beautifully. I know because I use it myself on a cold water tank. But it costs more to install of course. Heavy chillers aren't exactly cheap.
Sounds right what you have done there. Maybe insulating the walls would be good too. Because if the walls are colder than the air in the tank room then there will be lots of condensation. Insulation will seal the tank room from the rest of the house thermally. Could be a good thing.
If you do the room sealing well then it shouldn't be necessary with a heavy ventilation system. But I don't feel competent to make any guesses about its size. The idea of having lot's of ventilation in the tankroom is not very appealing in a cold climate since it wastes energy. The tank room should be kept warm and humid. After all it is only a problem when the humidity leaves the tank room. Everything in there can get wet anyway.
The ideal solution in terms of energy efficiency is to have little ventilation from the tank room and a big chiller standing *outside* the tank room. Thus the chiller sucks energi from the tank and dissipates it in the house. The energy from the lamps is then used to heat the house. So you get energy reuse. This works beautifully. I know because I use it myself on a cold water tank. But it costs more to install of course. Heavy chillers aren't exactly cheap.
Hi everyone, sorry i haven't been around much to answer questions so i will try to answer a few-sixxer my 750 gallon tank had 3/4 inch thick acrylic in the front and was 36 inches tall so useing 1 inch thick for 36 to 38 inches would work fine.My tank was made out of concrete and was 8 inches thick.I recessed the acrylic into the concrete.I formed a 3 inch indentation around the the perimeter of the acrylic so that 3 inches all around the acrylic was holding it. I then took aqarium silicone and put that up against the concrete and all arond the acrylic and the pressure from the water held it in place.I used bracing to hold in until the silicone cured.Norskfisk is absolutely right you need to seal the room with green board(i know because i am a drywaller) so the moisture doesn't leave the tank room and so it doesn't get to the outside walls were condensation will occur and eventually mold(which is what happened to me).Aquarimobsessed i would not put a de-humidifier in the room because it will only cause your tank to evaporate much quicker and it will heat the room up.I would personnal get a large exhaust fan that was controlled by a humidity gauge where it would come on when the humidity was too high or set with a timer to come on every hour for a certain amount of time that is what i had setup behind my tank.You will also have to think about cooling the room down.If its in the winter you can run the exhaust fan more but in the summer if its really hot you will a big chiller(which will put heat in the house) or some kind of air conditioner, i had central air and had to pipe it into the tank rooms and it ran just about 24 hours a day in the hot summer.
AquariumObsessed
In Memoriam
ok...so no de-humidifier...
What about an HRV system?
Will this expel enough air at 200 CFM?
What about an HRV system?
Will this expel enough air at 200 CFM?
sixxer
In Memoriam
Thanks for your replies Mr.4000.
Did you actually have to build the forms to pour your concrete into, or were you able to use typical foundation forms because of the size of your tank. What about rebar? Did you use any?
How did you set-up overflows on a concrete tank?
Thanks again for any info. you can contribute!!!!
Did you actually have to build the forms to pour your concrete into, or were you able to use typical foundation forms because of the size of your tank. What about rebar? Did you use any?
How did you set-up overflows on a concrete tank?
Thanks again for any info. you can contribute!!!!
Aquariumobsessed, i'm not saying that you can't use a dehumidifier but it will run non stop because of the endless supple of water in the tank and the heat that it will generate(because its actually an air conditioner running backward sucking in air over a cold coil and expelling warm air)will make your room much warmer thus having to run an exhaust system even more,you would be suprised as to how much heat the lights generate, i had 6 1000watt metal halides and i didn't have to have a heater on my tank and it kept it at 78 to 80 degrees and at night with such a water volume it never dropped.You don't want any ventilation system thats hooked into the house system because you will add unwanted moisture to the rest of the house causing condensation to form on windows and run like a waterfall as in my case there was so much coming off my windows it was actually rotting some of the window sills.You would have to look up the size of your room as to what the manufacturer recomends,but then i would still go bigger because thats less times it would run and wouldn't have to run very long to pull the heat and humidity out of the room.Norskfisk is right if you seal the room tight you won't need a real big ventilation system because the room no matter what will always be warm and humid which will work to your advantage because heating the water could get very expensive as well as cooling it, the big thing is to keep it out of the rest of the house.Sixxer, i rented the forms and they are the same ones they use for house foundations.They were 8 feet tall(my ceiling was nine feet) but i only poured 7 feet high to have room for lights and getting into the tank.The overflow system was actually quite simple but the hardest part of the tank to design.I put a 3 inch pvc pipe into the back of the tank centered in the mddle of the concrete.There were 4 tees that led out of the back of the tank that were surrounded with concrete to seal it from the inside.After the concrete cured i had marked were the pipe was and drilled 2 inch holes through the concrete into the pvc pipe which when the water got to a certain height the water would flow through the holes into the pipe and down the tees into other 3 inch i had plumbed to the sumps.My only problem i had was trying to figure out if it would flow enough water through the holes(which there were a lot) and well it didn't, so i had to cut slots 2 inches wide and about a foot long to allow enough water to flow and it worked, i was lucky that it did because i didn't have a backup plan and cutting any of the back wall out and redoing was out of the question because putting more concrete on top of what was there would of created leaks and the strength would be the same.I did use lots of rebar, you really need a lot to make sure cracks don't develop in the walls especially after its set up and running and i used fiberglass(you can order fiberglass added to the concrete) to help strenghten and prevent cracking.
