My 10 gallon xenia forest

[1DeR9_3Hy]

Looks like a Michigan November to me (northern Michigander here)

So whats the plan? Use the green water to grow the rots? Or use the rots to clear the tank...?

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Looks like a Michigan November to me (northern Michigander here)

So whats the plan? Use the green water to grow the rots? Or use the rots to clear the tank...?

Yeah . Except with less leaves on the trees, I get more sun in the window.

The plan is to use tankwater to culture the rots in all of those containers, since the rotifers do not seem to be thriving in the tank, but do thrive in bottles. I am planning to do a 50% water swap with each container daily. Net biomass will be held constant, but perhaps the rotifers will manage to get the upper hand in the bottles.

 

[g8gxp]

You should change the name of the thread from "xenia forest" to "How to grow Phyto". Interesting project though. - subscribing.

 

[wingman200]

oh no...im sorry dude

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Ok, so the rotifers were not making any progress in the main tank, did a great job on the bottles, but not the main tank for some reason.

So I picked up a "green killing machine" aka UV sterilizer, from petsmart for $40 and hooked it up last night. I am already seeing positive results, so that makes me quite happy. I already have about twice the visibility and the skimmer is pulling out nice, thick, skimmate.




Also, I began setting up a second 10 gallon xenia forest at home. I am really excited about this new tank, it is entirely airlift powered. Only one rock and two small xenia frags so far. I will probably do a lot more stocking when I go home for thanksgiving and christmas. Here is a picture:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4l9aMmbcFlQqJiWtuykgfQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_xXnKvgKPgX4/SvcnbLcf9VI/AAAAAAAAA4o/9keIHbMMsDM/s400/dscf0002.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/deformative0/AirLiftFragTank?feat=embedwebsite">Air lift frag tank</a></td></tr></table>

 

[ipodhommie]

what kind of lights are you using?
Where can you get them and what wattage are they?

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

what kind of lights are you using?
Where can you get them and what wattage are they?

http://www.changethelight.org/product_info.php?cPath=49_5&products_id=1

Target, home depot, the internet, anywhere really.

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Pre-UV:
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9J3DSFBmfNhDXS56loIF8g?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_xXnKvgKPgX4/SvxUTtG2OkI/AAAAAAAAA5U/6b13VAcOqH8/s400/Photo0042.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/deformative0/10Gallon?feat=embedwebsite">10 gallon</a></td></tr></table>

2 days after additon of UV:
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TAXctj_TfeM0qTXx0vhCRQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_xXnKvgKPgX4/SvxUTqKGE1I/AAAAAAAAA5Q/kDTzmuyZAWs/s400/Photo0056.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/deformative0/10Gallon?feat=embedwebsite">10 gallon</a></td></tr></table>

3 days after:
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XV2qbOYcTvOPPBaIG7Ipgw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_xXnKvgKPgX4/SvxUTmpn7iI/AAAAAAAAA5M/oRIfISSmLj4/s400/Photo0060.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/deformative0/10Gallon?feat=embedwebsite">10 gallon</a></td></tr></table>

4 days after:
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ryrlNni6t47yZ6qefVpf_Q?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_xXnKvgKPgX4/SvxUTfW1hLI/AAAAAAAAA5I/vZxLPU4RysI/s400/Photo0061.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/deformative0/10Gallon?feat=embedwebsite">10 gallon</a></td></tr></table>

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Oh, for future reference, anyone with this problem, DO NOT add brine shrimp eggs. On my small scale tests, I have seen that brine shrimp make the problem 9x worse. Seriously, don't even think about it. Rotifers are good, and so is the uv sterilizer. Water changes didn't really seem to fix the problem, nor did a skimmer.

 

[Lyfey]

I think the problem is your lighting. Since its a 6500k bulb only, they are known to cause outbreaks of green algae, along with the light from the window its going to be light that until alot of man hours invested into adding equipment and work. I would honestly ditch that bulb and get a compact flourescent fixture (cheapy) or a small current USA t5 24" fixture.

 

[1DeR9_3Hy]

Oh, for future reference, anyone with this problem, DO NOT add brine shrimp eggs. On my small scale tests, I have seen that brine shrimp make the problem 9x worse. Seriously, don't even think about it. Rotifers are good, and so is the uv sterilizer. Water changes didn't really seem to fix the problem, nor did a skimmer.

What UV did you end up using?

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

What UV did you end up using?

9w "green killing machine" from Petsmart. $40

 

[1DeR9_3Hy]

Ah..the AA unit That thing works really well for how cheap it is. And the modular lamps are a nice bonus.

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

I am very happy with it. The tank is no longer green at all. It is just cloudy still, and that has been going away. I can't wait for it to be clear again. Though, the more it clears, the more I see other plagues that have popped up when I couldn't see them... aiptasia and valonia...

 

[redfishsc]

Dude, that first page is a heartbreaker! Such a lovely forest.... then...... mush....

At least you're having some fun with it.

I think the problem is your lighting. Since its a 6500k bulb only, they are known to cause outbreaks of green algae, along with the light from the window its going to be light that until alot of man hours invested into adding equipment and work. I would honestly ditch that bulb and get a compact flourescent fixture (cheapy) or a small current USA t5 24" fixture.

To a degree I would agree with you. I've watched bryopsis outbreaks happen in tanks with just 10,000K bulbs, while another tank in the system with much more blue light (and equal # of bulbs) had much less bryopsis growth.

But..... he likes the 6500K and had no algae problems at all before the tank meltdown.

6500k bulbs have much higher par than any of the other garbage people use over their tank, not to mention just how close this clam is to the light especially since clams come from an environment where the light they receive is roughly similar to what is produced by 6500k bulbs, so it is difficult to consider light an issue.

I have actually tested the PAR on those CF bulbs, I tested a several-month old 6500K flood light (26W CF spiral with the flood reflector built in). Used an Apogee Quantum.

Notice how very quickly even in a 5.5g the PAR drops to a pittance. You'll have to trust me that the chaeto in the fuge was not blocking the PAR meter, this is a consistent reading.


Also, regarding PAR and 6500K lighting, I'm convinced that blue wavelengths (around 450-460nm) are often more productive for our tanks than red, yellow, and green (ie, what a 6500K really produces a lot of).

Most photosynthetic animals have a high peak of photosynthetic activity sitting right around the 450-460nm range, and another, much much smaller peak in the red wavelengths.


Add to this the fact that the Apogee Quantum meter tends to read blue wavelengths very low, and tends to read the red wavelengths a bit too high, and I think we have ample evidence that says that blue light is quite a bit more useful that you might be giving it credit.

The ATI Blue Plus (460nm) puts out an insane amount of PAR, and considering that the Quantum is likely under-reading it... the PAR may actually be much higher.



All that to say that the 6500K CF bulbs are not necessarily going to have the output and proper spectrum that you are hoping, esp. for that clam.

The clam may be just fine, and I'm sure you are taking proper care of it. I just wanted to bring this issue on the 6500K light to your attention.

Hopefully you find it useful

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Dude, that first page is a heartbreaker! Such a lovely forest.... then...... mush....

At least you're having some fun with it.






To a degree I would agree with you. I've watched bryopsis outbreaks happen in tanks with just 10,000K bulbs, while another tank in the system with much more blue light (and equal # of bulbs) had much less bryopsis growth.

But..... he likes the 6500K and had no algae problems at all before the tank meltdown.





I have actually tested the PAR on those CF bulbs, I tested a several-month old 6500K flood light (26W CF spiral with the flood reflector built in). Used an Apogee Quantum.

Notice how very quickly even in a 5.5g the PAR drops to a pittance. You'll have to trust me that the chaeto in the fuge was not blocking the PAR meter, this is a consistent reading.


Also, regarding PAR and 6500K lighting, I'm convinced that blue wavelengths (around 450-460nm) are often more productive for our tanks than red, yellow, and green (ie, what a 6500K really produces a lot of).

Most photosynthetic animals have a high peak of photosynthetic activity sitting right around the 450-460nm range, and another, much much smaller peak in the red wavelengths.


Add to this the fact that the Apogee Quantum meter tends to read blue wavelengths very low, and tends to read the red wavelengths a bit too high, and I think we have ample evidence that says that blue light is quite a bit more useful that you might be giving it credit.

The ATI Blue Plus (460nm) puts out an insane amount of PAR, and considering that the Quantum is likely under-reading it... the PAR may actually be much higher.



All that to say that the 6500K CF bulbs are not necessarily going to have the output and proper spectrum that you are hoping, esp. for that clam.

The clam may be just fine, and I'm sure you are taking proper care of it. I just wanted to bring this issue on the 6500K light to your attention.

Hopefully you find it useful

Thankyou for this post! Interesting. Though, there is an unfortunate flaw in your logic. You should not be so quick as to assume the change in par is due to the water or the specific type of light, in fact, I would think that very little if any is due to the water diffusing it.

Remember than intensity = constant / r^2 for a point source. This is because the "rays" shine away from the point, not in parallel, they all intersect at the point source.

Intensity = constant when the light rays are running in parallel, examples of parallel rays would be a laser or sunlight. A laser is designed to make the rays parallel, so they do not diffuse with distance, and the sun is actually a point source but the radius is so large that the intensity doesn't change with 8" or however deep the tank is. k/100000000000000 and k/100000000000001 is hardly different.

These lights can not be treated as point sources or parallel, mostly due to reflectors. Reflectors will make more rays go in the same direction, behaving slightly less like a point source, but the intensity does still decrease with distance.

So, if you can, please take a par reading from that radius, even out of the water, I bet it would be just about the same. It is not that the water is diffusing the light, it is that the intensity is just decreasing because of distance.

Halide lighting, or any of the lighting we use, does the same.




By the way, the clam died shortly after the 100% water change, the water was many degrees colder than tankwater, the salinity wasn't exactly on, and I didn't try matching the ph, so I attribute the death to the water change. I explained in an earlier post.

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Also, regarding PAR and 6500K lighting, I'm convinced that blue wavelengths (around 450-460nm) are often more productive for our tanks than red, yellow, and green (ie, what a 6500K really produces a lot of).

I agree with you. Though, I think it is more true for corals which come from deeper water, I have tried with some of my corals I noticed that some corals in particular seem to grow faster with low k, and others with high k. I mean, I have never gone diving, but based on the pictures here, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-02/ac/feature/index.php I would think xenia are from shallow water, so they are rather accustomed to red light.

And yes, I also agree that most algaes typically grow faster with low k, same for cyanobacteria and the like. But like you already eluded to, this tank was doing great for about a year, it grew all those xenia and I never once had an algae problem or needed to clean the glass. I would like to get it back how it was.

 

[redfishsc]

So, if you can, please take a par reading from that radius, even out of the water, I bet it would be just about the same. It is not that the water is diffusing the light, it is that the intensity is just decreasing because of distance.

Sorry to hear about the clam. :sad2:


As for the light issue, I think I understand what you're saying, but whether in the water or out, the PAR drops to 1/3 in 8" of distance. Speaking in terms of pragmatism, moreso than theory. I'm not much of a theorist.... way too pragmatic for anything like "thinking", too much work:wildone:.

I will say that I was pleasantly surprised by the PAR output at the surface. Explains why the cheato grows so well there!


As for PAR measurement, I don't own the Quantum meter, it is owned by a local coral farmer who was kind enough to come visit a "little feller" like me. Was a fantastic visit, I learned a lot from him.

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Oh, I see.

 

[schaper]

I feel sorry for your fish. 100 percent water change? wow