My CBB Died :(
- Thread starter chimmike
- Start date
CichlidMan@<3
I'm Nuts
Seriously? Live freaking water? Come on... lets just throw nitrates and phosphates directly into our aquariums. I don't know but that is something I will never agree with doing or recommend someone to do. I don't care how new the aquarium is. Put in a bit of live sand from an established aquarium or good established live rock.
SPSEMPIRE
New member
Sorry to hear about the loss. CBB are extremely delicate animals and should only be shipped by experts. If you don't have any experience with these animals and there behavior, order 6 of them and hopefully you will get 1 to make it. Your best bet is to get one out of a LFS that is eating mysis, even if it cost twice as much.
Barfly
Custom User Title
DO NOT put water from your lfs in your tank. It is a very bad idea. Matt, do you have any reputable resource you could point me to that supports your position on "live water"?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1950404&highlight=live+water
While I would never agree with ordering 6 fish in order to hopefully have 1 survive, the fact is that it is true. Even if the CBB is provided with the best conditions, it is a very difficult fish to keep. Mike's fish could have died from a variety of reasons and unless he plans on having a necropsy done, we will never know for sure. What I do know is that putting this type of fish in a new system that had been running for less then 2 weeks was not such a good idea and should not have been done. These fish are hard enough to keep without complicating matters by introduction to an immature system which in most cases willresult in death.
amheck
New member
what do you guys think about buying "bigger" CBB's, in hopes that the animal is already established? I was in Creative Oceans on Sat and saw several bigger ones and I thought about this thread. Depending on how long they've had them, I'm wondering if this could be the way to go.
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mattliu
Member
I think I may be misunderstood on this.
My main point is that there is a difference between fresh uninhabited synthetic salt water and established tank water. In the context of this thread, I'm saying that if he bought or was given live/waste water from someone and used live rock, he could have provided the copperband with an environment that did not cause the death of the fish. I think bringing up Rockin Reef might be part of the problem as their live/waste water is probably not the best choice, but it would still contain beneficial bacteria and indeed algae. It would definitely be a better route to get some "waste" water from say an established SPS tank, but this water is "live" in just the same way rock and sand are "live."
Time is money, so if someone wanted a tank right away, buying live/waste water is not necessarily a rip off. I agree it would be better to be given someone's live/waste water for this purpose.
For more clarification, most water from water changes is waste, but it depends on the tank. If someone like Emmet was doing a water change and he was nearby, I would ask for it because his "waste" water is probably cleaner with better overall parameters than my tank water ever is.
Barfly, I don't know of a reference that advocates this practice. But think about the most widely advocated method for establishing a tank. Put what decorations in it you want with a wet/dry, add some damsels. Seed it with some bacteria. Feed the fish for about 8 weeks and monitor the water for ammonia and nitrite spikes. At the end of this process you'll be left with live/waste water with quite a few phosphates and nitrates.
Camryn1, Nitrosomonas sp. and Nitrobacter sp. are in live water off the top off my head, but there's a plethora of other bacteria in there and algae of various genera (if we were both snooty Ph.D's it'd be worth listing).
Moe's The Marine Aquarium Reference sheds light on the concept of live water.
My main point is that there is a difference between fresh uninhabited synthetic salt water and established tank water. In the context of this thread, I'm saying that if he bought or was given live/waste water from someone and used live rock, he could have provided the copperband with an environment that did not cause the death of the fish. I think bringing up Rockin Reef might be part of the problem as their live/waste water is probably not the best choice, but it would still contain beneficial bacteria and indeed algae. It would definitely be a better route to get some "waste" water from say an established SPS tank, but this water is "live" in just the same way rock and sand are "live."
Time is money, so if someone wanted a tank right away, buying live/waste water is not necessarily a rip off. I agree it would be better to be given someone's live/waste water for this purpose.
For more clarification, most water from water changes is waste, but it depends on the tank. If someone like Emmet was doing a water change and he was nearby, I would ask for it because his "waste" water is probably cleaner with better overall parameters than my tank water ever is.
Barfly, I don't know of a reference that advocates this practice. But think about the most widely advocated method for establishing a tank. Put what decorations in it you want with a wet/dry, add some damsels. Seed it with some bacteria. Feed the fish for about 8 weeks and monitor the water for ammonia and nitrite spikes. At the end of this process you'll be left with live/waste water with quite a few phosphates and nitrates.
Camryn1, Nitrosomonas sp. and Nitrobacter sp. are in live water off the top off my head, but there's a plethora of other bacteria in there and algae of various genera (if we were both snooty Ph.D's it'd be worth listing).
Moe's The Marine Aquarium Reference sheds light on the concept of live water.
funkman262
New member
Is nitrobacter the dominant nitrite-oxidizing species in saltwater? It was thought to be in freshwater but it's actually nitrospira which is why certain bacterial supplements containing nitrobacter would require you to continually add it throughout the life of the tank (whereas those that contained nitrospira only needed to be added once).
Barfly
Custom User Title
mattliu, those bacteria have been found to be pretty light intolerant. They don't tend to free float in the water unless they have no choice. There will be some free floating algaes anfd bacteria, but none that I'd say are what I'd want to add to a new tank... they are often likely to die off in an immature system adding to the waste products.
mattliu
Member
Is nitrobacter the dominant nitrite-oxidizing species in saltwater?
Don't know. But it does it. No offense to the scientific community, they do the world a great service, but their attitude tends to be condescending. The hobby makes scientific contributions too.
Gee, I wonder why that is.
Because people tend to be closed minded, afraid of change, and blind to analogy. Experience should be the basis of belief, and that's fine that you guys don't think you should "cycle" a tank as I have described. I know from my own experience it's a viable option; it's a beautiful thing to not need a reference for that.
mattliu, those bacteria have been found to be pretty light intolerant.
The internet says light reduces their efficiency. I'm sure you could link me to one that says the opposite. I wouldn't rely solely on my water either.
If you guys think your water contains no life and that water isn't the medium for life so be it. Rhetorical ?: Does water contain life or does life contain water ?
Thanks for expressing your viewpoints. This is probably the most active club board on RC. Happy Reefing.
Don't know. But it does it. No offense to the scientific community, they do the world a great service, but their attitude tends to be condescending. The hobby makes scientific contributions too.
Gee, I wonder why that is.
Because people tend to be closed minded, afraid of change, and blind to analogy. Experience should be the basis of belief, and that's fine that you guys don't think you should "cycle" a tank as I have described. I know from my own experience it's a viable option; it's a beautiful thing to not need a reference for that.
mattliu, those bacteria have been found to be pretty light intolerant.
The internet says light reduces their efficiency. I'm sure you could link me to one that says the opposite. I wouldn't rely solely on my water either.
If you guys think your water contains no life and that water isn't the medium for life so be it. Rhetorical ?: Does water contain life or does life contain water ?
Thanks for expressing your viewpoints. This is probably the most active club board on RC. Happy Reefing.
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Barfly
Custom User Title
Well, from the experience standpoint of it, I have over 20 years of it and most of my viewpoints come from my own experiences. Back in the early 80's when we were almost all still using under gravel filters with crushed coral substrate, people were always coming up with ways to cycle a tank quicker. None of it works. A new system goes through many changes in the first couple of months. I would also say from experience that a system isn't mature until at least the 6 month mark. I don't think anyone said the water did not contain life. Whether that life is beneficial or not is a completely different story. Adding "live water" to a new system is not a good idea. The negatives far outweigh any of the debatable positives. There are many free floating parasites and other bad things in the water column of another system and it would be unwise to start a new system using water from another system. Any positive gain is minimal at best.
Hey Matt, Any of the lfs you worked at ever sell "live water"?
mattliu
Member
I've only worked at one. They didn't sell live water, they sold "dead" water which most likely still contained bacteria. At least one person would come by and be given water from the main coral tank. I doubt that water would be given away to the vast majority. Why ? Because it has intrinsic value and I wouldn't expect him to give it away either. What's the alternative ? Charge for it. His word is accepted as a reputable reference; he advocated using vodka to accelerate cycling.
I agree tanks mature, and as they mature, more and more niches of our mini-ecosystems become filled and there becomes less and less of a need for all the crap your LFS wants to sell you. You're familiar with Lee Chin Eng.
I have beaten the term "relative" to death, but beneficial is a relative term. This is dangerous on this board but here goes nothing: all bacteria can be considered beneficial. I admit I can't pinpoint and have not researched what beneficial bacteria is present in an established tank's live water nor do I care to, I'll leave that to someone's boring thesis. I do know that if you try and get the best live sand and live rock never expose it to air, on and on and on, and use fresh salt water and try to set up a tank you'll have problems, but if you use live water and do this you won't.
Once again, it goes back to the fact that you can successfully move a tank.
I agree tanks mature, and as they mature, more and more niches of our mini-ecosystems become filled and there becomes less and less of a need for all the crap your LFS wants to sell you. You're familiar with Lee Chin Eng.
I have beaten the term "relative" to death, but beneficial is a relative term. This is dangerous on this board but here goes nothing: all bacteria can be considered beneficial. I admit I can't pinpoint and have not researched what beneficial bacteria is present in an established tank's live water nor do I care to, I'll leave that to someone's boring thesis. I do know that if you try and get the best live sand and live rock never expose it to air, on and on and on, and use fresh salt water and try to set up a tank you'll have problems, but if you use live water and do this you won't.
Once again, it goes back to the fact that you can successfully move a tank.
SwampyBill
New member
There are no quick shortcuts in this hobby...If someone wanted a tank 'right away', they're in the wrong hobby (unless they're buying a system already set up & running). Buying 'live/waste water' or those bottles of chemicals that supposedly cycle a tank in a day are all snake-oil & a waste of money, not to mention dangerous to the health of a tank. & 'the most widely advocated method' for establishing a tank--with damsels? Maybe that was the old school way back in the '90s. IMO, cycling a tank with fish was cruel then, & it still is (even if they're damsels...
) It's much more humane to put a raw shrimp or flake fishfood in the tank to kickstart the cycle; & test water every few days. If someone doesn't have the patience to wait around 8 wks for a tank to cycle, maybe they need to look for another hobby, or they'll just be throwing money down a saltwater drain. Just my .02...
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SwampyBill
New member
I don't believe anyone's disputing the fact that it's possible to successfully move a tank; as many of us have done that, myself included. I think the general debate is about your claims of the value of such a thing as 'live water'...:crazy1::crazy1::crazy1:
TampaReefer79
Premium Member
This thread isn't dead yet?
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Meanwhile back at the ranch...the Energizer Bunny was arrested and charged with battery. :spin3:
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Meanwhile back at the ranch...the Energizer Bunny was arrested and charged with battery. :spin3:
TampaReefer79
Premium Member
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