my diy needle wheel dart pump

[tinygiants]

My thanks to Spazz for sharing his performance numbers with me. Here is what I came up with from his numbers:

This information was provided by Spazz.

Chamber Area 253.6 Inches Squared
Bubble Rise Height 48 Inches
Original Water height 42 Inches
Volume of Air 2.25 CFM

I calculated these numbers.

12.50% of air water column = .88 cubic feet
Air Dwell (volume average) = 23.48 Seconds
Air Bubble Rise Rate = 2.04 Inches / Second


Here is how my fine pore stones compared in a much smaller vessel:


13% of air water column = 0.09 cubic feet
Air Dwell = 9.67 Seconds
Air Bubble Rise Rate in Current = 4.96 Inches/Second
Calculated Air bubble Rise Rate Standing Water = 5.55 Inches/Second

The volumes are only important in the % aspect. Spazz achieved a 12.5% saturation. The goal is 13%. Look at the air dwell numbers. Over the same bubble rise height his bubbles stayed for 23 seconds. Mine stayed for 9. Look at the rise rate of the bubbles. My skimmer was a counter current model. His bubbles are 50% slower.

I am sure there is some room for error in this test, as they were not done side by side. However, I would have to say the bubbles from the NW are better suited for our end goal.

There is only 1 other comparison I want to make when I get the info.

Dale

 

[trodder]

That is pretty cool Scott (Spazz):bum:


Those results are phenominal for a NW prototype whipped together in your garage !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[spazz]

well i need some help guys. i cant hook up air meters to my test tank with out it restricting the air flow to the pump. so i need a formula for figuring out the air intake to the pump using the volume of tthe tank and hight of water with and with out air in it. im hoping tinygiants might ba bale co come up with something here.
also i built another needle wheel. i wanted to see the difference in wattage when i reduced the diameter of the wheel. well it has some advantages and dis advantges. it seems to make smaller bubbles when drawing air on its own. and it seems to draw air better at higher head hights. plus draws less watts too.
so here is the numbers and a pic of it running.

it runns 150 watts drawing air on its own. it takes 26 seconds for the bubbles to clear the chamber after the pump is turrned off. with air in the chamber, the water hight is 58" with the pump off the water hight is 54.5". i tried to get a bubble size pic but they didnt turn out. will try later to get a good one. also the turbulance inside the body are less than when the air pump is supercharging the dart pump. also the bubbles got huge when i turned on the air pump. im still trying to figure that one out yet. there is a conciderable difference in the 2 designs. and i need to figure out why it makes bigger bubbles when its supercharged.

 

[nyvp]

wow keep it going spazz. Your my hero !!

 

[tinygiants]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6522643#post6522643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
well i need some help guys. i cant hook up air meters to my test tank with out it restricting the air flow to the pump. so i need a formula for figuring out the air intake to the pump using the volume of tthe tank and hight of water with and with out air in it. im hoping tinygiants might ba bale co come up with something here.
also i built another needle wheel. i wanted to see the difference in wattage when i reduced the diameter of the wheel. well it has some advantages and dis advantges. it seems to make smaller bubbles when drawing air on its own. and it seems to draw air better at higher head hights. plus draws less watts too.
so here is the numbers and a pic of it running.

it runns 150 watts drawing air on its own. it takes 26 seconds for the bubbles to clear the chamber after the pump is turrned off. with air in the chamber, the water hight is 58" with the pump off the water hight is 54.5". i tried to get a bubble size pic but they didnt turn out. will try later to get a good one. also the turbulance inside the body are less than when the air pump is supercharging the dart pump. also the bubbles got huge when i turned on the air pump. im still trying to figure that one out yet. there is a conciderable difference in the 2 designs. and i need to figure out why it makes bigger bubbles when its supercharged.

I will get on it later tonight. It will be in excel format though. You will need to have a spreadsheet program to use it.

Dale

 

[tinygiants]

Well,
This was a little harder than I thought. In order for me to calculate it, I had to make a mathmatical assumtion. In your earlier test your average bubble was nearly the same as the average volume in terms of rise rate.

So I used the 28 seconds to figure a rise rate of 1.64 inches / second. (46/28=1.64)

Using this number you can figure how much air has to be pumped in to maintain the 7.6% bubble cloud.

% Bubble Cloud = (58-54.5)/(58-12) = 7.6%

3.5 inches high X 253.6 square inches = 887.62 inches cubed air volume in water = .514 feet cubed

.514 cubic feet / (28 seconds / 60 converting to minutes) = 1.09 CFM

So your bubbles are great, there just are not enough for that size body. They are enough for a 6.75 " radius body though.

Dale

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6526434#post6526434 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tinygiants
Well,
This was a little harder than I thought. In order for me to calculate it, I had to make a mathmatical assumtion. In your earlier test your average bubble was nearly the same as the average volume in terms of rise rate.

So I used the 28 seconds to figure a rise rate of 1.64 inches / second. (46/28=1.64)

Using this number you can figure how much air has to be pumped in to maintain the 7.6% bubble cloud.

% Bubble Cloud = (58-54.5)/(58-12) = 7.6%

3.5 inches high X 253.6 square inches = 887.62 inches cubed air volume in water = .514 feet cubed

.514 cubic feet / (28 seconds / 60 converting to minutes) = 1.09 CFM

So your bubbles are great, there just are not enough for that size body. They are enough for a 6.75 " radius body though.

Dale

ah yes thats the answer i was hoping for! your the man! thats how much air the pump will draw on its own with out the air pump attached. i plan to lower the water in the chamber and re calculate the numbers to see what affect the head hight has on the pumps ability to draw air on its own.
next on the list is to chop up my panworld 100 px-x to see how it works as a needle wheel. i dont think it will be very promising though. the outlet is very small and i think it will restrict the flow to much.

 

[spazz]

well guys as you have figured out by now i can never leave it well enough alone. i just had to do it. i was down looking at my 120 nano and seen that the skimmer cup was getting full. so where did i dump it???? in the test tank of course. well......... what a supriese that was. it was like a volcano just went off in my shop! i had to hurry up and shut it down. but not quick enough though. there was foam everywhere. in 5 seconds it dumped almost all of the skimmate back out onto the floor. so i drained some of the water out and started it back up. here is what it looks like 20 seconds after i started it back up again.

i guess i wont do that again. put a head on this bartender.

 

[Beenalongtime79]

That's a healthy head of foam sir.

Peace,
John H.

 

[dgasmd]

Spazz:

Take the test tank and drain it. Then, fill it with water from your 120g tank. Start the skimmer and see what you get then.

 

[spazz]

i dont think i would get much at all. the 120 has a huge skimmer on it. that skimmer would handle a 180 with ease. right now i dont even have to clean the glass on the tank. the skimmer strips the water to the point where nothing but coraline algae grows on the glass. i have a lawn mower blenny that is almost starving to death. i have to feed him nori every day or he would die real quick.

 

[dgasmd]

An even better test then. If your current skimmer in the 120g skimms something out of it, then it means there is plenty there. Put that water int he bigger skimmer and see how it does compared to the smaller one.

 

[spazz]

well im alot happier with the new needle wheel than i was before. i think i was trying to over ajust the flow and that caused the bubbles to becoem alot bigger . after messing around with it for a while i got the bubble size i like. and the best part is that i knocked off 50 WATTS! now im at 175 watts with both the dart needle wheel and the air pump running together. im stil getting the same amount of air too. now for the best part. this needle wheel should fit into a standard dart housing. no special modifacations to the housings. i still need to see how much lower i can ge thea wattages and still get the same amount of air going to the test tank.
if you think about it. the ocean runners pull 20 scfh of air and use 60 watts to do it. that would be like having 7 ocean runners on a skimmer and it only draws the power of 3 of them. thats 1.29 watts per cubic foot of air. the bubble kings are 1.54 watts per cubic foot. this is like having 3 red dragon pumps running on a skimmer.

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6532902#post6532902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dgasmd
An even better test then. If your current skimmer in the 120g skimms something out of it, then it means there is plenty there. Put that water int he bigger skimmer and see how it does compared to the smaller one.

after i get the top built onto the test tank i need to haul it over to energys house and hook it up there. i think it will have plenty to skim in that tank. im almost positive that the skimmer he is using is not big enough for that system. even though it seems to be doing a very good job. that will be the real test. and we will see what kind of numbers i get out of florida too. cough! cough!ha ha ha

 

[tinygiants]

This is some awesome stuff spazz. I am excited for your results. I could run my whole skimmer off of this 1 pump. No need for supercharge. If your airbubbles are typical, I am confident they can be entrained with reasonable water flow. Your bubbles make the 120 second bubble dwell possible.

Are you still doing more test?

Do you want the calculator still?

Can you use excel format?

Dale

 

[BeanAnimal]

tiny... willing to update your progress in your thread?
Nice work spazz.

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6534322#post6534322 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tinygiants
This is some awesome stuff spazz. I am excited for your results. I could run my whole skimmer off of this 1 pump. No need for supercharge. If your airbubbles are typical, I am confident they can be entrained with reasonable water flow. Your bubbles make the 120 second bubble dwell possible.

Are you still doing more test?

Do you want the calculator still?

Can you use excel format?

Dale

yes i would like the spread sheet file from you. im not sure if i can open it with the programs i have or not. i have to see. can you send it to moby165129@aol.com thanks for all your help. geometry was never my strong point in school. i was always dreaming of building something. go figure now i need it. boy was i stupid. lol

 

[BeanAnimal]

what programs do you have spazz?

 

[BeanAnimal]

you may also want to remove your email addy so you don't get tons of unwanted spam.

 

[tinygiants]

Here is the calculator.

If it needs to use different known variables, I can reconfigure. I am fairly confident in the accuracy of the conversions, but if you see a mistake, let me know.

Dale

P.S. Where is the best source for my own Dart pump?