my diy needle wheel dart pump

[spazz]

ok guys here is the latest batch of pics after the rework has been done to the pump and plumbing. i mounted the pump lower in the tank first off. then added a 1/2" pvc air intake to the inlet side of the plumbing. this increased the pumps ability to draw air on its own by not restricting the air flow. i cant messure the air intake with out causing a major restriction to happen. the meters i have dont work well under vacuum. it causes the wattage of the pump to rise by 30 watts. so thats telling me its a major restriction. with the meters on it, it will draw 80 scfh. but im sure with out the meters it around 100 scfh. and thats at 4'3" of water hight in the tank. i feel this is becomming a better design every day. it would give the owner the ability to use the pump with or with out an air pump to assist it. you could put the dart on a 4ft skimmer and then if its not enough you could add the sweetwater pump on it to supercharge it. the one thing i worry about is the wattage draw. with out the pump sucking any air it will draw over 300 watts. this design has alot of drag on the motor with out any air in the there being chopped up. but with it sucking air on its own it goes down to 160- 180 watts. depending on how far the valve is opened up on the intake of the pump. i did increase the ouput fitting to 2" and shortend it up as much as possable. i feel it creates alot less drag on the exiting water. so right now this pump will draw 1.8 watts per cubic foot on its own and 1.45 watts per cubic foot with an air pump supercharging it. well enough blah, blah, blah, on to the pictures.
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZZ' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_11.gif' alt='Thumbs Up' border=0></a>

 

[tinygiants]

Awesome.

Are you happy with the needle wheel? Can it be duplicated by the average DIYer?

Dale

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6462913#post6462913 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tinygiants
Awesome.

Are you happy with the needle wheel? Can it be duplicated by the average DIYer?

Dale

im somewhat happy with it. but i feel there is always room for improvement.
i dont think the avrage diyer could make one with out some specal tools. like a lathe or milling machine. im going to try and see if i can make one on a drill press. its hard to do a good job on a part that needs to be ballanced and be perfectly round and true. we will see. its just a matter of time before i get it all figured out.

 

[spazz]

the biggest problem is getting the silicone carbide seal that is in the impellor to seal. thats why it need to be perfect. if the seal was not part of the impellor it wouldnt matter as much. look at the sequence web site for a breakdown of the pump housing and impellor.
here is the link to it.

http://www.mdminc.com/Dart_Parts_List.htm

 

[zapata41]

sp spazz has sequence contacted you yet to tell you to stop because you are beating them the the punch with thier own product

Tim

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6463127#post6463127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zapata41
sp spazz has sequence contacted you yet to tell you to stop because you are beating them the the punch with thier own product

Tim

no not yet. but one of the guys that is with the design team that is working for sequence has been in contact with me. they might send me one of there designs to test out. i would like to see the difference in wattage and air intake. i have done alot of work to the impellor and the housing of my pump. so if i was to get one of there impellors it might work better on my pump that it would on theres. i will see. im hoping ot hook both of them up on the tank and see. mine will be the way it is right now. and theres wil be in a standard dart housing. then we will see which one seems to be better. i will have to get some club members over here to get there opinions as to which one is better. my opinion wouldnt hold much weight seeing i designed 1 of the 2 impellors.

 

[hahnmeister]

looks like HTK has the right idea with that 1/2" air inlet.

 

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6463216#post6463216 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
they might send me one of there designs to test out. i would like to see the difference in wattage and air intake. i have done alot of work to the impellor and the housing of my pump. so if i was to get one of there impellors it might work better on my pump that it would on theres. i will see. im hoping ot hook both of them up on the tank and see. mine will be the way it is right now. and theres wil be in a standard dart housing. then we will see which one seems to be better.

What would be even better is if your design wouldn't require the housing to be modified as it would bring it closer to the masses. However, I guess one can't have the cake and eat it too. Congratulations on the progress. This has certainly gone above and beyong the average DIY thread and project.

 

[spazz]

ya that 1/2" plumbing helped get rid of some of the restriction. but it still dont suck as much air as using the sweet water pump. when it draws air on its own it, it has 4 gallons of air in the water and with the sweet water pump it has 5.6 gallons of air in the water. and thats with 40.8 gallons of water in the tank. thats 10% air to water rario running with out the air pump, and 12% running with the pump. the other 1% i want is used up in the bottom of the tank where there is no bubbles. im thinking about turing this test tank into a test skimmer. all i have to do is add the top cup and inlet/outlet plumbing to it. then i could put in on a system to see how it skims.

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6464158#post6464158 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dgasmd
What would be even better is if your design wouldn't require the housing to be modified as it would bring it closer to the masses. However, I guess one can't have the cake and eat it too. Congratulations on the progress. This has certainly gone above and beyong the average DIY thread and project.

the modifications to the housing are not major enough to be a problem to any DIYer. its the needle wheel itself. you need some major tooling to build the wheel itself. you need to get the seal perfect of it will leak.

 

[tinygiants]

That would be a monster of a skimmer.

Spazz,
I do not think you are giving your self enough credit on the volumes. Like you said it is in the base where there is no air. Take your measurement from the point of injection. That will give you a better ratio. The volume of air injected is not different, but the ratio to water is. From the pics, it looks as if about 10% of the water volume is below the pump. That water should not factor in the air to water ratio (at least in my mind). I am understanding that 13% goal to assume an even distribution of the bubbles.

Dale

 

[dgasmd]

I just want this thing out and released already so I can slap it in my skimmer and let it rip at will. I would actually run it with my current sweetwater pump since I already have it here. Wait! I ahve a dart sitting here, the air pump, the skimmer, and the larger system. I guess all I need is the impeller and modified housing LOL......... Hint hint LOL.................

 

[tinygiants]

Spazz,

Can you give me some measurements from your test? I would like to compare some bubble characeristics from your needle wheel and my different air stones. The mesurements I would like are:
Cross sectional area of test body:
Height of the air injection into the body:
Height of the water column without air:
Height with Air:
Volume of air input:
Length of time for air to clear the water column after securring the air source:

I will share any results I calculate with you, and you can decide if you want to disclose them.
My goal is to see if air bubbles act the same from the different injection methods.
Thanks,
Dale

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6473730#post6473730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tinygiants
Spazz,

Can you give me some measurements from your test? I would like to compare some bubble characeristics from your needle wheel and my different air stones. The mesurements I would like are:
Cross sectional area of test body:
Height of the air injection into the body:
Height of the water column without air:
Height with Air:
Volume of air input:
Length of time for air to clear the water column after securring the air source:

I will share any results I calculate with you, and you can decide if you want to disclose them.
My goal is to see if air bubbles act the same from the different injection methods.
Thanks,
Dale

when you say cross sectional area are you refering to inside dimentions?
will get the wesuring tape out and post the answers in a little while.

 

[spazz]

Cross sectional area of test body: 14.5" across
Height of the air injection into the body: 12"
Height of the water column without air: 54"
Height with Air: 60"
Volume of air input: 2.25 cfm
Length of time for air to clear the water column after securring the air source: 23 seconds after both pumps are shut off and thats leaving a little bit of air bubbles in the chamber. i go off of the main cloud of bubbles.

 

[tinygiants]

Thanks,
I will do the calcs this evening. I will send them to you so you can see what and how I did them.
Dale

 

[tinygiants]

Is it a perfect octagon? How long are the wall sections? i am trying to figure out the square inches of the footprint. That will allow me to calculate volumes per height.

Thanks,
Dale

 

[tinygiants]

Using 7.25 as the wall dimensions I came up with a cross sectional area of 253.6 square inches. Does that match your work?

Dale

 

[trodder]

I do believe it is a perfect octagon...

 

[spazz]

in order for this to be a true test of this design i have decided to turn my test tank into a skimmer. then it will be delivered to energy here in my club for some serous testing. what ever the results end up being i will have energy post them here. im also sendingone of these needle wheels to florida for testing. these will be the only ones made for testing. that way i get some independant results of my design. im hoping they can reproduce the same results as i get here in my shop. the test tank wont make a pretty skimmer but it will be functional. im hoping to have it completed in the next 2 weeks. that way we can see what this size skimmer is capeable of doing. im hoping this will skim his tank with ease.