My Fishes Are Scratching - AGAIN!!

R

ReefFresh

New member
Hi Guys
Its a 450 liters marine tank (fishes only no corals) thats run about five months. On January 20, I completed 21 days of cooper treatment after noticing my fishes are scratching for the first time.
through the treatment and till yesterday the fishes seems healthy and stopped ich. At the end of the treatment I've replaced 100 liters and inserted an active carbone (Carbonit P) into a mesh bag to the sump.
No new fishes were introduced.
In the middle of the treatment i've replaced my bio pallets media from Continum to All In One. I took the 500 mg of the new media, splited it to three batches and added a batch per week. Last batch was added last Saturday.
Yesterday I saw two fishes scratches again.
I am very frustrated and really dont know what I did wrong and what can be done.
I can share more details on my system if needed.
 
Do the fish have spots again?

Also if you could post your water parameters that would help, could be a water quality issue too.
 
So far no spots. Amonia, Nitrit at 0. Nitrate are very high 50-100. I guess that this is because of the cooper that killed all the bacterias. Today I an planning to replace 50 liters.
 
By the way I have blooming and i guess it is because the new introduced media. Although i added the media slowly by dividing to 3 batches, blooming alpears. Should I wait for the blooming to dissappear or should I remove part of the media?
 
Did you test the copper level throughout those 21 days? Your live rock could of absorbed the dosage rendering it ineffective.
 
Yes I did. Although the cooper was Cupramine of Seachem and the test kit was JBL.
Through the entire treatment period I made sure that the cooper levels are between 0.3 to 0.45.
 
You've been successful in killing your live rock and sand, it will never be able to be used. You should NEVER put copper in your DT with rock and sand as it kills the bacteria and you will never get the copper out of the rock and sand. Also it made your copper treatment ineffective to ich if you actually had it to begin with. There are many reasons that fish scratch themselves and you should only treat something that you have a positive ID for. Maybe you did have a positive ID for ich but the fish would have been better off with the TTM Tank Transfer Method!

You need to get rid of all of your rock and sand and start all over again. If you don't have another tank to put the fish in, I suggest that you get one or rehome them or bring them to your lfs for a credit then restart your tank all over again.

Sorry but those are the facts and there is no way to sugar coat them. We are here to help you succeed with your tank and will always have someone that will help you to make good decisions.
 
It has been quite some time since I used copper for ich treatment. I seem to recall it needs to be maintained at 0.5 for 30 days. Below that level it is not as effective. I also agree that if you treated in your DT it will be very difficult to remove all the copper. Just my 2 cents
 
dkuhlmann said:
you've been successful in killing your live rock and sand, it will never be able to be used. You should never put copper in your dt with rock and sand as it kills the bacteria and you will never get the copper out of the rock and sand. Also it made your copper treatment ineffective to ich if you actually had it to begin with. There are many reasons that fish scratch themselves and you should only treat something that you have a positive id for. Maybe you did have a positive id for ich but the fish would have been better off with the ttm tank transfer method!

You need to get rid of all of your rock and sand and start all over again. If you don't have another tank to put the fish in, i suggest that you get one or rehome them or bring them to your lfs for a credit then restart your tank all over again.

Sorry but those are the facts and there is no way to sugar coat them. We are here to help you succeed with your tank and will always have someone that will help you to make good decisions.
Click to expand...


+1
 
Dkuhlmann said:
You've been successful in killing your live rock and sand, it will never be able to be used.
Click to expand...

Damn. lol He is right though

but on the same note, how would you be able to tell when your buying dead rock if its been treated with copper? I have two 5lbs rocks that was on my QT in the backyard. it looks exactly like my dry rocks on the container.
 
If you know its been treated with copper its better to just consider it a loss than too use it in a tank that will house invertebrates. A QT tank should use ceramic media so it will not absorb the copper.
 
Dkuhlmann said:
You've been successful in killing your live rock and sand, it will never be able to be used. You should NEVER put copper in your DT with rock and sand as it kills the bacteria and you will never get the copper out of the rock and sand. Also it made your copper treatment ineffective to ich if you actually had it to begin with. There are many reasons that fish scratch themselves and you should only treat something that you have a positive ID for. Maybe you did have a positive ID for ich but the fish would have been better off with the TTM Tank Transfer Method!
You need to get rid of all of your rock and sand and start all over again. If you don't have another tank to put the fish in, I suggest that you get one or rehome them or bring them to your lfs for a credit then restart your tank all over again.
Sorry but those are the facts and there is no way to sugar coat them. We are here to help you succeed with your tank and will always have someone that will help you to make good decisions.
Click to expand...

I disagree.
Copper might slow down the bacteria but it can recover. For a FOWLR tank it's a common treatment. While the rocks and sand may have absorbed enough copper to render them unusable for a coral tank, it's not necessary to tear down the tank just yet. There are even anecdotal reports that with careful use of cuprisorb, DTs treated with copper have recovered and housed thriving coral. I certainly wouldn't recommend dosing copper into a DT, but it has been done.

IDK what the flashing is, they can do that for several reasons.

ETA: To be clear, the Cupramine that OP dosed is sort of like a copper attached to an organic (cupr + amine) so some of the really old wive's tales about straight copper are less of a concern. It's chemically different from back in the day when reefers would throw a handful of pennies in the tank when their fish had spots. For example, the amine is supposed to make it more readily taken up by carbon, and less likely to attach to carbon structures like rock and sand.
 
Last edited:
I'd run PolyFIlter for quite an extended time. If copper soaked in, copper may soak out unless it found a more attractive thing to bind to---but it may take months. Gradually it will be absorbed by the resin of the PolyFilter and the biofilter will take over again.
 
ReefFresh said:
So far no spots. Amonia, Nitrit at 0. Nitrate are very high 50-100. I guess that this is because of the cooper that killed all the bacterias. Today I an planning to replace 50 liters.
Click to expand...

These little ammonia badges are like $5 and they last a year
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AmmoniaAlert.html
You can stick it in the tank and then you only have to look at the color instead of testing the water with drops and all. I'm not sure if the cupramine will give a false positive reading for ammonia on the badge, it can on some tests.
The badges are a good way to keep an eye on you biofilter to make sure the bacteria continue removing the ammonia from your tank like they are supposed to. Because the badge is so easy, and it can see very small amounts of ammonia, you will know sooner if your bacteria starts to die.
 
I'm using Coppersafe in my FOWLR tank that's BB and never had an issue with ammonia. I do use the seachem badge and it has never changed color besides yellow. The label on the bottle also states that it will not effect the bio-filter. I would not thrown any of that rock out if you are not planning to have corals.
 
I would ask, out of raw curiosity, WHAT species? You've basically said I have a tank of thus size and fish which could be anything from gobies to sharks are acting itchy. :) I'm guessing clowns? tangs?
 
I have been keeping FOWLR for many years. My current aquarium has been set up for 4 years with many Angels and Butterfly's. A few years ago I had an outbreak and successfully treated my aquarium with Cupramine. I would recommend that if you are going to treat with copper that you go 45-60 days. And as stated you have to test the water daily and adjust to keep the level at or close to .5. Also I would use Seachems copper test kit. As far as throwing the rock and sand away that's nonsense unless you plan on adding any inverts down the road. Another thing I would consider is possibly flukes. I have seen more fluke problems occurring the past 5 years. Keep an eye on your fish and if you don't see any signs of crypt on your fish and they still are scratching consider doing a couple rounds of PraziPro. Best of luck to you....
 
Thank you all for the answers.
T disagree on the decision on treating with cooper in DT. Although it is not optimal, I didn't had QT when I've noticed the fishes scratching. Even if I had QT, catching the fishes could be very difficult since they keep hiding in the rockery. I know that the cooper will slowly disappear. I am using active carbon that absorbs the cooper and I my skimmer will help as well. As mentioned its a FOWLER I dont have any plans to go Reef any time soon and I know that if I do, it will be a complete restart! I know many sellers that running cooper regularly in their systems.
Between all the answers I didnt see any suggestions for solutions. Should I change water? if so, how much?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

E
What's Old is New Again
Replies
2
Views
424
Uncle99
Uncle99
A
Choosing a Canister Filter for 55-gal Saltwater — OASE Biomaster Thermo 600 vs EHEIM Classic
Replies
4
Views
922
vlangel
vlangel
Reignfire
Stray current
2
Replies
31
Views
1K
griss
griss
J
I finally "like" this hobby
Replies
5
Views
329
Guygettnby
Guygettnby
JeannineC
Fish suggestion
Replies
19
Views
2K
rwbroadnax
R
Back
Top