my house reef (211 g.)

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7050773#post7050773 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
If no one minds ... I have a few questions.


I'll be quiet now, and go back to lurking ...


JMO ... TIA!

Hey Meso

Dont go back to lurking please - this is just the sort of quality input I miss from over there

Just IME there are my observations - would be good to hear experience from other users as well...

I set up my current reef with Rowaphos from the start - before I apopted the Iwan method - to 'cook' the LR to ensure that PO4 was stripped from the water column before it could be adsorbed and to take out any leaching from the LR I trandfered from the previous set up. After a few Rowa changes the readings were consistantly 0 (Deltec Merick test) and after 11 or so weeks with Prodi - I took Rowa off line and PO4 readings have remained zero. Whether this is due to the prodi bac strains effectively converting PO4 to ??or absorbtion by calcarious materials - or just used by the corals I dont know .

Prodibio state that thier bac strains do deal with PO4:

"These bacteria work in team; each strain ending the work begun by another. Some are capable to synthesize the dénitrifying enzymes in aérobic. It insure thus the purification, the reduction of nitrates, phosphates and prevent the growth of algae. They avoid equally by the food competition the proliferation of pathogenics organisms and decrease thus the unexplained sickness risk."

One final point on my experience - after about 4 - 6 weeks with prodi I had a chateo crash in the refugue- previously even with Rowa it was thriving. I took this to be due to nutrient startvation - however in recent weeks another strain of macro algae has been growing ever so slowly which indicates to me that some PO4 makes it to the sump and past the skimmer.

Tangblack has had PO4 readings which have lowered with weekly rather than fortnightly bac dosing.

Floridot has seen very little change in his PO4 readings since dosing Prodi which are measured by pro lab equipment. The lab test measures both organic and inorganic PO4, while the Meric test I use only measures one of these I understand.

The conclusion I draw from this is that we dont know the exact mechanism for P04 reduction or what the whole PO4 picture is.

I'd be interested to hear if in the longer term Iwan is taking out sequestered PO4 with the top level of the tank DSB.

On the low nutrient issue just being one element - I'm finding this to be very true in my experience. I have found that the low nutrient environment that prodi produces helps with coloration and PE up to a point, but that if I let it go too far - there is a fading 'malnurished' effect with coral lightening to the point of concern - and this is where the zeo CV and AAHC have saved the day in providing supplemental nutrition to bring a healthier more 'nurished' cloreful look. I'm experimenting with major/minor element supplementation components - which I understand enables better uptake of supplied 'food' in a low nutrient environment.

It seem to me that once the zeo phase 2 has been achieved or Prodi has taken nutrients to starvation rations, its a fine skill striking the right ballance between washed out coloration and browing out - which is where the skill lays......

Since trying Nightsun (12 days @10% the recomended dose), and suspending zeo PIF PSG I and K-B I'm currently experiencing an odd situation where some sps are getting browner - some a little too light and some more deeply colorful - and as yet I dont understand why....any thoughts?

JME

Cheers

Simon

 

[jnarowe]

I have been following this thread with interest and I want to understand one point:

It is my understanding that the color of corals come from the bacterial strains they host as part of their nutrient uptake system and that corals will sometimes eject a strain and attract a different one in response to water quality, light availability, etc.

So if you are "cleaning" the water with varoius biological elements to the point that algae die off, isn't it possible that the corals are then able to get the majority of their nutrients through photosynthesis and are likely to host less bacterial strains and therefore have a more muted coloration? Clearly that is not the case with Iwan's tank but I am trying to get a better understanding of what is happening within the corals.

Or do I have that backwards???

 

[robthorn]

chi your experiences are wierd to say the least. it is so amazing how different corals may act differently. you are without a doubt reducing nutrients yet browning corals are normally a sign of high nutrient levels from what I have read at least. have you tried supplementing iron since lower po4 levels in your tank? or iodine? I have read this whole thread but it has been over a period of time and I can't remember alot of it. both are said to be contributors in greens and the depth of there color. iron is risky since it speeds the growth of algea. I have experienced this personally where I had a carpet of algea every 2 days in my sand until I stopped dosing iron then it went away.
do you also think the color changes are just something the corals are going through until they adjust to the new water conditions? maybe they are trying to regulate the growth of zoox in there tissue and possibly the changes in parameters are just to fast for them to keep up? maybe certain corals can adapt faster than others. maybe the browning corals can't control the amount of nutrients that the zoox are uptaking and as far as I have heard this in the long run could cause an acidic state inside the corals tissue and eventually cause death or rtn to the coral? I guess what I am saying is could there be an overdose situation of one or more of the additives you are using? maybe only because the system you are using is very new to your aquarium? new meaning not in years of use.
just a thought

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7051832#post7051832 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
I have been following this thread with interest and I want to understand one point:

It is my understanding that the color of corals come from the bacterial strains they host as part of their nutrient uptake system and that corals will sometimes eject a strain and attract a different one in response to water quality, light availability, etc.

So if you are "cleaning" the water with varoius biological elements to the point that algae die off, isn't it possible that the corals are then able to get the majority of their nutrients through photosynthesis and are likely to host less bacterial strains and therefore have a more muted coloration? Clearly that is not the case with Iwan's tank but I am trying to get a better understanding of what is happening within the corals.

Or do I have that backwards???

Hi John

Yes thats both my understanding and experience too(until dosing nighsun). The pink hysterix and grey/blue acro in the pics I posted earlier showed that effect ie went from brown PE to pink and lighter grey/blue respectively. As i understand it - the surfacs zoo become lighter - allowing the underlying color to be seen better in a low nutrient environment and if one tips over into nutrient starvation STN or bleaching is the risk. When I started observing a bleaching tendancy - I dosed zeo CV then AAHC which acted as food and reversed the bleaching tendancy and improved coloration and growth.

The key difference that I can see between the prodi approach and the zeo basic 4 approach is that with zeo - shaking the rocks dailing produces food for the corals also in the form of bacteria shaken free - which would have the effect of reducing thier need for photosynthesis dervived energy.

Next on my list of experiments is to place coral branches in a fluidised reactor and shake these daily to see if this produces bacterial guilds that go into the water column and enhance feeding.

Before Iwan used Nightsun - his coloration seemed to be more pastel than alexander G's results - so there maybe something in that feeding mechanism?

Cheers

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7052156#post7052156 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robthorn
chi your experiences are wierd to say the least. it is so amazing how different corals may act differently. you are without a doubt reducing nutrients yet browning corals are normally a sign of high nutrient levels from what I have read at least. have you tried supplementing iron since lower po4 levels in your tank? or iodine? I have read this whole thread but it has been over a period of time and I can't remember alot of it. both are said to be contributors in greens and the depth of there color. iron is risky since it speeds the growth of algea. I have experienced this personally where I had a carpet of algea every 2 days in my sand until I stopped dosing iron then it went away.
do you also think the color changes are just something the corals are going through until they adjust to the new water conditions? maybe they are trying to regulate the growth of zoox in there tissue and possibly the changes in parameters are just to fast for them to keep up? maybe certain corals can adapt faster than others. maybe the browning corals can't control the amount of nutrients that the zoox are uptaking and as far as I have heard this in the long run could cause an acidic state inside the corals tissue and eventually cause death or rtn to the coral? I guess what I am saying is could there be an overdose situation of one or more of the additives you are using? maybe only because the system you are using is very new to your aquarium? new meaning not in years of use.
just a thought

Hi Rob - thanks for the review of the possible causes

Nightsun do say that browining is an overdose indicator (as with some of the zeo aditives - although Iv susspended all but CV and AAHC to see what happens with Nighsun) - so even though I'm only using 10% of what they recomend for 'normal' tanks - I'll cut back to 5% and see what happens.

I have changed salts to Seachem Reef about 3 weeks ago - which looks very elementally ballanced and am about 50% into a change over - 1.6% every day or too - so minor elements could be in better suplly...?

That still leaves the lightening of some of the others - perhaps I need to up CV and AAHC for the benefit of these....


I'v fragged the browing acros any but piced in low mediuym and high locations to see if lighting is a factor.....

I guess all this sps sensitivity is what makes this hobby so interesting

Cheers

SImon

 

[robthorn]

now you've thrown a wrench in the wheel. did you say you stopped prodibio also? isn't it funny how no matter what we do we always find a way to change 2 or 3 things at once?
if you did stop the prodibio do you have a reason or just an experiment? or did you just stop all the zeo products besides the 2 mentioned?

 

[GDW]

ooops ...

 

[robthorn]

hey chi you said you had some algea die off also right? like it turned white? another indicator of low iron .

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7052777#post7052777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robthorn
now you've thrown a wrench in the wheel. did you say you stopped prodibio also? isn't it funny how no matter what we do we always find a way to change 2 or 3 things at once?
if you did stop the prodibio do you have a reason or just an experiment? or did you just stop all the zeo products besides the 2 mentioned?

Lol - no - I still dose prodi as per instructions - and remain super impressed with it like wise with CV and AHHC.

The changes are: + nightsun and seachem reef salt - zeo PIF PSG etc. I stopped the zeo elements to give nightsun a run - as there is some overlap between the 2 product groups.

Everything else is stable NO3 and PO4 =0 - Ca 420- 390 (trend downwards with increased growth) DKH 11, Mg 1260 PH 8.02 - 8.3- temp 26 - 27 celcius - Lighting same 8 T5 tubes - I changed GAG use to more passive flow on recomendation of Alexander G a while ago.

Re the Iron - I dont mind not having macro algae in the sump - are you saying that iron deficiency can cause browing or lightening?

Cheers

Simon

 

[jake2045]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7050680#post7050680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kurt448
They are up now

I still can't get their website (zeovit)up anyone else having trouble?

 

[Tagareef]

Jake2045,

For now, type in: 216.55.183.207 ...until the site is repaired.

Sorry for not posting a link...I didn't want to get in trouble!

Luis

 

[jake2045]

Thanks for the help Meso pm it to me. Dang I was having withdrawals.

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7051435#post7051435 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robthorn
... have you read the coral magazine issues 1 through 6 or 7 that deal with nutirents in the aquarium? I am through 5 of them and I need to go back and re read them a few times to really grasp everything but it is at least giving me a better understanding of what is going on ...

Those articles are great stuff!

That being said ... they unfortunately don't really address what's going on with bacterioplankton filtration. They are an easy read, and they do present critical issues and concepts relevant to bacteriplankton filtration.

The folks who really ought to take an interest in the articles are the BB Berlin-style reefers who have achieved a "stripped nutrient" water column ... particularly article VI which specifically addresses nitrogen and phosphorous limitation in a still organic carbon-limited water column (water columns resulting from bacterioplankton filtration are fundamentally different in that they are not organic carbon-limited).

BTW, when I write about "carbon limitation", I am referring specifically to DOC ("dissolved organic carbon") ... Not DIC ("dissolved inorganic carbon"). The distinction between organic vs. inorganic carbon limitation is significant. There is simply no way for a viable reef aquarium to be inorganic carbon limited ... think about how much CO2 and HCO3 (among others) is present.

JMO.




If you haven't come across Jorg Kokott's "Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium" articles, they are definitely worth a read ...

Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part I
(Coral magazine, February/March 2004)
The fundamentals about nutrients and their concentration in seawater.


Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part II
(Coral magazine, April/May 2004)
Feeding mechanisms of zooxanthellae corals - a concept based on symbiosis.


Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part III
(Coral magazine, June/July 2004)
Feeding zooxanthellate corals.


Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part IV
(Coral magazine, August/September 2004)
The Biological Function and Turnover of Nutrients.


Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part V
(Coral magazine, December 2004/January 2005)
Iron - An Essential Metal We Know Nothing About.


Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium - Part VI
(Coral magazine, February/March 2005)
Understanding the Concept of the Nutrient-Limited Reef Aquarium.


Here's the website for Coral magazine ...
http://www.coralmagazine.com

Here's the "back issues" page of Coral magazine's website ...
http://www.coralmagazine.com/backIssues.htm

Here's Coral magazine's "contact us" page of CORAL magazine's website ...
http://www.coralmagazine.com/contactUs.htm


Also ...

Coral magazine's Advertising Sales Department:
1011 South Linwood Avenue
Santa Ana, CA 92705
Phone: 714-543-4100
FAX: 714-543-4800



FYI

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7051625#post7051625 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TryTheChi
... The conclusion I draw from this is that we dont know the exact mechanism for P04 reduction or what the whole PO4 picture is.

I'd be interested to hear if in the longer term Iwan is taking out sequestered PO4 with the top level of the tank DSB.

...

Many thanks for the detailed response ... MUCH appreciated!

My own limitation of perception regarding the "whole PO4 picture" is more than a little disturbing. After all, we're talking about particulate organic phosphate (POP), dissolved organic phosphate (DOP), particulate inorganic phosphate (PIP), and dissolved inorganic phosphate (DIP) ... my mind boggles when it realizes that I can only test for one of these. The best I can do is this type of visualization ...

[This is modelled after Wheaton (Wheaton, F. W. 1997. Aquacultural Engineering. Robert E. Kreiger Publishing Co., Malabarm Florida, USA.) and is a really bad reproduction of a graphic which appears in Delbeek and Sprung's The Reef Aquarium. Science, Art, and Technology (2005).]


Thank the gods of reefkeeping that biofilms seem to have no such visualization difficulties.

I too am curious as to the extent that siphoning of the upper layer of the DSB serves a "phosphate export" function.



JMO

 

[Reefdaddy1]

Could someone please answer me on this. Is the DSB in europe with Plenum? Or is it jsut DSB? I have seen both in pages on thier websites , But would like to know what the standard is. And what Is Iwan ruinning on his? Thanks

 

[ScubaTC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7052366#post7052366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TryTheChi
...As i understand it - the surfacs zoo become lighter - allowing the underlying color to be seen better in a low nutrient environment and if one tips over into nutrient starvation STN or bleaching is the risk. When I started observing a bleaching tendancy - I dosed zeo CV then AAHC which acted as food and reversed the bleaching tendancy and improved coloration and growth....

Hi Simon,

I've still been following this thread and the recent posts are very interesting. BTW thanks for the help you've given me through various PMs. While using Prodibio for almost a month now, besides the amazing PE I have began noticing lightening in some of the SPS corals as well as color beginning to show more dominantly on the tips of some. A few of my SPS corals that have previously never shown colored tips are beginning to show color for the first time. In fact, one of my small frags has already produced a pronounced bluish-teal green tip, which was always brown before.

My primary concern right now is coral lightening. After reading your comments it leaves me without question that I need to begin supplementing additional coral food and trace elements (CV and AAHC) to avoid nutrient starvation. I have a purple SPS with brown polyps. The once purple tips on this SPS have now gotten so light that they have begun to almost whiten. This is worrying me as I have yet to buy the CV and AAHC additives and did not think that it would be critical to begin using them so soon after using Prodi for about 4 weeks. Until I can start these, do you have any other recommendations as a temporary substitute for these additives to help address the whitening tips? I was also thinking of holding off on the next Prodi bact doses, but continue to maintain Reef Booster doses. I've been keeping an eye on my chateo in the sump and it seems to be maintaining it's size at this point (no growth and no decline). So I did not think my nutrients were that low as of yet.

Before I started Prodi my phosphates and nitrates were already undetectable using Salifert tests. Since I've started dosing Prodi I've also began running carbon 24/7 in the sump and performing weekly 15% water changes in place of the routine monthly changes.

Regards

 

[doody]

I thought that carbon was a no no for the Iwan methode

 

[ahchung]

Does it require a strong skimmer for Prodibio products to work?

 

[ScubaTC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7057267#post7057267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ahchung
Does it require a strong skimmer for Prodibio products to work?

My skimate was a little darker after starting Prodibio and now I have notice a reduction in how much is produced daily. I believe others have also noted that skimate is reduced due to the low nutrient environment the bacteria is establishing.

 

[ScubaTC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7057189#post7057189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doody
I thought that carbon was a no no for the Iwan methode

It's been so long ago since I read through this thread, but the reason I started using carbon is because I am sure it was recommended somewhere within the thread to run AC 24/7 while using Prodibio. I could be wrong though.