My Ich Experience

[saltyputty]

I wanted to share my story on dealing with Marine Ich in a reef tank.

I purchased a purple tang, which was eating in the store and had no visible spots on the body. Respiration rate was normal.

After introducing it to my DT (I do not have a QT), the fish developed spots within 2 days.

None of my other fish ever had it, so I suspect the PT brought it in.

All the fish were eating well, so I decided not to put anything in a QT.

I began treatment as follows:

1. removed carbon / purigen.
2. Fed fish heavily with EE soaked in Lipovit, Immuvit and Garlic Extract.
3. Medicated the tank with Polyp Lab's Medic. These are peroxide salts, that are supposed to be reef safe. The only negative reaction I noticed was that the zoos closed up for 10 to 15 mins immediately after dosing. Medic was dosed 2 times per day.
4. Ran UV 24 7 for 2 weeks.

No copper, or hypo was used and the fish were never moved to a QT.

I have now not seen any sign of ich for over 6 weeks.

I just wanted to point out that there are alternative treatments that are effective. I believe the key is reducing stress (IE not netting the fish again) and the fact that the fish never stopped eating.

 

[jnc914]

Doesn't mean that the ich is not in there, it just means you have built up the fish's immunity to it with everything you have been dosing. Without doing copper, hypo, or just leaving the tank fallow for 6 weeks, the ich is still in the your tank. And don't be fooled by the hype of running a UV. Only a small percentage of the free floating stage of ich are actually killed by it. Believe me, I have learned the hard way regarding battling ich. I had the same attitude as you for the last several years with just adding new arrivals to the display, but have finally set up a nice QT. Anything new going into my tank now will go through 4 weeks of quarantine. I have too many $$$ fish to chance it.

 

[saltyputty]

Agreed, I never claimed to have eliminated, rather, I should have stated that I believe all the fish in the tank have built up immunity.

By that token, if every fish in the tank is immune does that not mean that the parasite would have no host?

Saying that new fish got ich when added to your tank, is not proof that there was ich in the tank. The new fish could have had it on the gills an d the stress of the move caused a break out.

UV has been shown to be limited, but I believe my success, or what I consider success, is due to the combinations of methods used. Every bit helps.

I do believe diet and water quality are huge parts of boosting the immune system of fish. Oh, and garlic...

 

[FishTri]

saltyputty,

Give us another update in sixty days. At six weeks, I'm hopeful, but not convinced...

 

[JustinReef]

Unfortunately in my experience once you had ich in your display, you always have it until you QT and leave the tank fallow. Its a lot of work and I am just starting to add fish back to my tank after a few months of it being fishless But its worth it. Just because you do not see ich does not mean your fish do not have it. They usually just have very small amounts that are not bothering the fish too much and usually in the gills. Your tank and fish will be fine and not show signs of ich until they get stressed again. Unfortunately that can be anything...bullying, temperature spike or drop, water quality change, ect. All the things that eventually happen to every tank.

This is all from experience. I fought ich for about a year in my display. I finally got it under control and thought I was done with it. I never added any more fish or anything that could bring ich into the tank but when I was away about 6 months later, there was a temperature spike and all the fish got ich again. Most of them died because I was on vacation. I had not seen ich in the tank for about 6 months and had not added anything but it was still there.

Just a warning...its not worth it. Just QT and be sure you are ich free.

 

[saltyputty]

I expect to see the odd spot here and there, but it has been interesting to watch and learn from.

I mainly do not want to net fish out if they are still eating.

I would like someone to answer my question regarding immunity.

If all fish were immune, would the parasite still have a host, or would it die out, as if it were in a fallow tank?

Are we talking immunity or just the ability to suppress a serious infection? And, the the latter good enough for our purposes?

I have heard of a strain of ich that is supposed to be resistant to hyposalinity and I think copper is pretty rough on the fish.

justin - i am in vancouver as well lol.

 

[paulamrein]

I agree with Justin, the factors that you have mentioned of the cure can easily sway back and forth to have little effect. Sure, everyone strives for perfect water and good immunity. Unfortunately, the second one of those variables change you are at square one again. It's a cancer, it can go to remission. But, you can believe it's not your last bout with it.

 

[paulamrein]

Immunity is not bulletproof. Eventually, even the most healthiest fish could fall to ich, it's a game of numbers, and regardless of your tank volume, it's no where near enough to keep ich's reproduction at bay.

 

[gary faulkner]

Salty,

Bump to the top!

 

[LargeAngels]

Interesting thread: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...se-treatment/21305-case-you-were-bored-p.html

Remark by Manufacturer
"In regards to the product itself:
Our product is NOT a miracle breakthrough cure against ich (and we don't
claim it to be). It is not a guaranteed cure for cryptocaryon in teleost
fish."

I have yet to see ANY study to show that any of these "Reef" safe ich treatments are proven to work.

 

[saltyputty]

Another week went by, new fish added, no ich on any fish in the tank.

 

[gary faulkner]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12611044#post12611044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
Unfortunately in my experience once you had ich in your display, you always have it until you QT and leave the tank fallow. Its a lot of work and I am just starting to add fish back to my tank after a few months of it being fishless But its worth it. Just because you do not see ich does not mean your fish do not have it. They usually just have very small amounts that are not bothering the fish too much and usually in the gills. Your tank and fish will be fine and not show signs of ich until they get stressed again. Unfortunately that can be anything...bullying, temperature spike or drop, water quality change, ect. All the things that eventually happen to every tank.

This is all from experience. I fought ich for about a year in my display. I finally got it under control and thought I was done with it. I never added any more fish or anything that could bring ich into the tank but when I was away about 6 months later, there was a temperature spike and all the fish got ich again. Most of them died because I was on vacation. I had not seen ich in the tank for about 6 months and had not added anything but it was still there.

Just a warning...its not worth it. Just QT and be sure you are ich free.

Great advice and the best given yet. Too bad some folks will rely on old wives tales and antidotes instead of solid science.

 

[saltyputty]

I take it that is a shot at me.

I guess we are assuming that there will NEVER be a reef safe cure for ich, and nothing new will EVER be found that can deal with ich in a reef tank, and that we should just stick with decade old cures (which by the way have been shown no to work 100% of the time, ie hypo resistant strain of ich, and using copper is pretty rough on fish, esp tangs). Should we, by that token believe that the sun revolves around the earth?

What would happen, in a situation where the fish still have ich, and are not bothered by it, as stated above, and the strain goes through its maximum number of generations. Will you still have ich in the tank then?

Garlic does increase feeding response, and my statements are based on the fact that the infected fish continue to eat. Which they did in my case.

If the fish goes off food, by all means, I would QT, if I could catch it, without stressing it death.

Go ahead and QT if this is the route you want to take, all I am doing is relaying my experience, and perhaps some alternatives.

My purple tang was covered, and had secondary infections, and fugal growths. It is currently a perfect specimen, and has been clear for about 6 weeks now.

Immuvit and Lipovit are amazing products in my experience for both FW and SW fish and probably contributed to boosting the fish immune systems to fight the ich.

I believe Medic by Polyp Labs may have an effect as well based on what I have seen.

I also believe that a UV sterilizer, at a very low flow rate, will knock down the free-swimming stage of the parasite to some degree.

Overall, I found the multi-pronged approach successful for me and wanted to share.

If old wives tales kept my fish alive, then thank you old wife.

 

[paulamrein]

There will more than likely NEVER be a reef safe product that KILLS parasites. It's a simple and perhaps not as well known as I thought that: the treatments available to KILL the parasite are based on the fact that they kill the simple organism quicker than it kills the fish. Much like Chemo (keeping with my cancer analogy) So, with that said there is no smart treatment that will kill parasites, but NOT kill the beneficial bacteria, or the invertebrates. There are ways to keep the numbers slightly in your favor temporarily with the meds you have described. But, in the end without complete death of parasites there will always be a chance, whether calculated risk or not. That you will have problems with it.
I'm not saying there are not breakthroughs in the hobby, (almost on a daily basis) and we will see the hobby turn for the better with technology, popularity, and advancement. But as of today, not yet. Now, the last thing I want to do is discourage you, by all means do what you are doing and document everything you can. But, I believe it's pre-mature to say, it works.

 

[gary faulkner]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1401637&goto=newpost

 

[gary faulkner]

"They" are those that think of themselves as those who know, but it's as plain on the nose of those that know those no knowing "those" they do not know, they only suppose.

Gotta love it!

 

[saltyputty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12647713#post12647713 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulamrein
There will more than likely NEVER be a reef safe product that KILLS parasites. It's a simple and perhaps not as well known as I thought that: the treatments available to KILL the parasite are based on the fact that they kill the simple organism quicker than it kills the fish. Much like Chemo (keeping with my cancer analogy) So, with that said there is no smart treatment that will kill parasites, but NOT kill the beneficial bacteria, or the invertebrates. There are ways to keep the numbers slightly in your favor temporarily with the meds you have described. But, in the end without complete death of parasites there will always be a chance, whether calculated risk or not. That you will have problems with it.
I'm not saying there are not breakthroughs in the hobby, (almost on a daily basis) and we will see the hobby turn for the better with technology, popularity, and advancement. But as of today, not yet. Now, the last thing I want to do is discourage you, by all means do what you are doing and document everything you can. But, I believe it's pre-mature to say, it works.

OK, but what about the question I posed about the limited generations of a strain of ich?

 

[paulamrein]

IF there are no additions, than there is speculation that the strain will eventually die out in 10 months to a year. It's an interesting read. But, additions could be anything wet and you can introduce a new strain with picking up a used power head from another reefer, or corals or even some have attributed the possibility of using a frozen food that has infected fish meat (I personally think we have a better chance of winning the lottery 2 weeks in a row playing the same numbers on that one though) I say that to say even with strict quarantine procedures you have a risk of infecting the tank with something. I respect that you want to find an alternative, and I respect that it is your tank and your fish. I don't want a carbon copy of someone else's tank, and you sure don't want a copy of mine but there is that, that is proven and that, that is speculation.

 

[saltyputty]

I will report weekly and I will continue to be honest about the situation.

If it can really come in on frozen food, that pretty much eliminates the use of a QT, but I personally am doubtful that it does.

 

[paulamrein]

Like I said, there is a chance for anything to go wrong, doesn't mean that you give up on QT because there is a slight chance of failure. I will be looking forward to your posts, there's just as much chance that either of us is right on this one. Just because it's popular opinion doesn't make it factual, just makes it proven to the degree of our experiences, same as yours.