My Prized Muelleri Butterflyfish has bumps all over body

[tylersarah]

Based on your description of the symptoms, I do believe antibiotic treatment is the correct course of action at this point. And erythromycin is an excellent choice. But shouldn't you be able to get that locally in Milwaukee? Petco/smart sells both API Erythromycin and Maracyn I believe.

You're right, Petsmart has the API Erythomycin, initially I was only finding Mardel products (passed on those) so I ordered online. Since I already dosed the kanamycin, I'll run with it and see what happens. Once the e-mycin arrives I could put some in frozen seafood and feed it for a series of days, apparently you can use the 2 in conjunction, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tylersarah]

Sorry I can't provide any advice but tagging along as I went through the same with a pyramid butterfly a few months ago. Same type of condition, mid body bump in white which later looked like it was detaching. I tried a 10 day round of prazi which looked like it removed the bump but area had red/brown lesion after. I started treating with KanaPlex (kanamycin) but saw no improvement. A week later I lost the fish. Good luck with Ziggy, you're doing a great job and I hope you find the key to resolving this difficult condition so we can all learn from your experience.

Francis

Thanks for the kind words. It's been a challenge. With your butterfly, how severe was the overall health of the fish when you began the antibiotic?

 

[HumbleFish]

You're right, Petsmart has the API Erythomycin, initially I was only finding Mardel products (passed on those) so I ordered online. Since I already dosed the kanamycin, I'll run with it and see what happens. Once the e-mycin arrives I could put some in frozen seafood and feed it for a series of days, apparently you can use the 2 in conjunction, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Never mixed those two before, so I can't say. Generally, I only mix minocycline with erythromycin; as that's just replicating the old-school Maracyn 1 & 2 mix.

From what I know of kanamycin, it's mostly used to treat gram-negative infections... but also effective against some gram-positive ones. Erythromycin is mainly gram-positive. Being they both treat gram-positive (to one degree or another), mixing the two would give me pause. So, I would probably run carbon and do WCs to get the kanamycin out before treating with erythromycin. That is, if the kanamycin fails to improve his condition.

On a side note, I think it's very likely if this is a bacterial infection that it's a gram-positive one. Gram-negatives are usually highly lethal in fish.

 

[tylersarah]

Roger that. Thanks for the great info.

 

[tylersarah]

Update

Update

Yesterday I took Ziggy on a field trip to have a skin biopsy, since there was no mucus by the sores a scale was pulled. There are no parasites, all signs point to ---> I beat flukes! Now we have to overcome the bacterial infection; looks to be coming from the inside out. 4.5 days of Kanamycin in food/water with no improvement, instead slight decline, so I made the decision to switch to Nitrofuracin Green Powder. He's much more active in the Nitrofuracin, not sure why, and still eating.

I emailed Bob Fenner, he suggested moving the fish back to the main tank because more often then not said treatments are more destructive than useful... "microbial issues starting w/other causes... mostly environmental, social, nutritional... and cured by fixing the same. Moving, isolating specimens... is much more likely to kill them." I'm certain I wouldn't have a butterflyfish right now if he wasn't so healthy when this began, I can't deny Fenner, but I am continuing treatment and will move the fish back to the main immediately following.

 

[caribfan]

Hey Sarah,

Sorry I kind of dropped off this thread, it sounds like you've really been dedicated to this fish, Kudos!

He might be doing better in the NFG powder because it has Methylene blue in it. I can't chemically explain why, but I believe this chemistry helps fish breath easier.

Just my 2 cents here, but in the future, if you believe it is flukes, a quick FW dip confirm or deny the presence. I know it can be a little intimidating, but i'm to the point now where I pretty much dip every fish I get after i've prophalatically treated for flukes to make sure i've eradicated them. This includes dipping a moorish idol for up to 30 minutes.

I hope Ziggy is doing better. I just got a new picasso clown tonight that my 2 year old named shorty. We now have Mr. Puff and shorty, not together obviously.

 

[vitz]

methylene blue both mildly tranqs fish, and aids in O2 transport, iirc.

 

[tylersarah]

So, he's high...

 

[tylersarah]

Hey Sarah,

Sorry I kind of dropped off this thread, it sounds like you've really been dedicated to this fish, Kudos!

He might be doing better in the NFG powder because it has Methylene blue in it. I can't chemically explain why, but I believe this chemistry helps fish breath easier.

Just my 2 cents here, but in the future, if you believe it is flukes, a quick FW dip confirm or deny the presence. I know it can be a little intimidating, but i'm to the point now where I pretty much dip every fish I get after i've prophalatically treated for flukes to make sure i've eradicated them. This includes dipping a moorish idol for up to 30 minutes.

I hope Ziggy is doing better. I just got a new picasso clown tonight that my 2 year old named shorty. We now have Mr. Puff and shorty, not together obviously.

Greetings!

Although I'm still learning the basics about disease, I have come quite far...I was almost offered a minimum wage job at one of the lfs because of my new found knowledge

I did a 4 min 30 sec fw dip on Ziggy (that's all I could handle) and didn't see any flukes. Now I'm making the fish as comfortable as possible in a blue water qt in the basement. He eats really well and I have a blanket over half the tank so he can choose what side he likes best. It's hard to judge his progress with dark blue water and altered behavior, but as long as he's eating.

Mr. Puff and Shorty sound like lovely fish friends. Thanks for helping with Zigs.

 

[caribfan]

The first one is always a bit nerve racking. Did you see any pale white bumps raise up on the fish? It seems like some flukes take longer to come off in dips. If nothing came off though, is feel pretty good about that.

 

[vitz]

So, he's high...

heh

methylene blue was also used extensively to treat/mitigate the after effects of suspected cyanide poisoning in fish.

iirc it actually makes it easier for O2 absorption and/or transport in the bloodstream (don't quote me on this).

 

[tylersarah]

Last night the bottom half of the QT heater was glowing bright orange, I pulled it and into the garbage after it cooled. I put a different heater in and checked the temp all night, it was in the 30's outside and I didn't know how that heater would perform. This fish has more lives than my cat.

Day 5 of Nitrofuracin Green treatment, eating like Tyler.

 

[SDguy]

Good to hear.

 

[tylersarah]

Today is day 9 of Nitrofuracin Green Powder treatment, I've decided on 12 days (in the middle of the suggested 10-14) and I'm trying not to get too excited, but things are going well. The fish has energy once again & is much more accurate when eating, during the onset of the infection he'd let the blackworms come to his face, now he hunts them down like the same worm zapper I've always known.

His swollen lower jaw flared up the other day, yet again (third time while in QT). I have never seen him bump into the glass, but it's quite possible this is the reason, he does chase himself in the reflection in the bottom glass a bit. I have a towel over most of the tank to keep the heat in and it minimizes reflections/glare.

He's main tank bound, I plan to move him Sunday. Saturday will be the last day of treatment, I'll do a w/c, remove the blue meds with polyfilter, get a good look at the sores/overall health of the fish (hard to do in dark blue water) and move him Sunday morning before the main tank lights are bright.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

So excited for you (and Ziggy), Sarah!!!!

 

[vitz]

fwiw, if blackworms are the only thing it'll eat, or being fed, that's not great news long term. fw critters shouldn't be used as the long term staple in a sw fish's diet. they will develop protein deficiencies (some protein sets sw fish need aren't found in fw animals, and vice versa) (this only applies, again, if it's not getting other stuffs, like mysis, chopped clam, cyclopeeze, a good marine flake/pellet. i only used fw blackworms to get superfinicky eaters to start (particularly emaciated mandarins), and tried to then wean 'em off asap

 

[tylersarah]

Typically I feed him 3x/day, small amts in the QT. I start in the AM with the blackworms and in the afternoon/dinnertime a frozen homemade blend, whatever I made up. This last batch consists of raw clam, shrimp, salmon, bay scallop, cyclopeeze, seaweed (Ziggy spits it out if he happens to catch a piece) & formula 2 pellets. Now that I have Dainichi pellets, I'll swap those in for the next batch, also some garlic to hopefully boost the immune system.

 

[tylersarah]

Also, I've acquired a nicely sized plastic colander to safely transfer him to other tanks/containers. The fish has been on the floor (trying to scoop with hands) and been stuck in a net (after hands failed), aside from these instances I've been a good fish keeper.

 

[tylersarah]

So excited for you (and Ziggy), Sarah!!!!

I'm sure you'll get a detailed playback of how it all goes. Thanks again for everything.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

fwiw, if blackworms are the only thing it'll eat, or being fed, that's not great news long term. fw critters shouldn't be used as the long term staple in a sw fish's diet. they will develop protein deficiencies (some protein sets sw fish need aren't found in fw animals, and vice versa) (this only applies, again, if it's not getting other stuffs, like mysis, chopped clam, cyclopeeze, a good marine flake/pellet. i only used fw blackworms to get superfinicky eaters to start (particularly emaciated mandarins), and tried to then wean 'em off asap

Have you tried caviar? I don't know if that is part of their diet but I would think the size would be ideal for the to eat.