Naming problem question/thoughts
- Thread starter jreimer
- Start date
sounds sweet!
over on ZoaID - i'd love to add the species to each zoa! but (at least right now) that's way over my head, heh! we've started requiring flash shots for new submissions to the site. sounds like it might be a good idea to start requiring a 'closed polyp' shot too?
i.e. have the submitter agitate the polyps so we can see the mat/stalk/stripes/sand/etc.?
as this sounds like a critical key to proper identification. whatcha think?
over on ZoaID - i'd love to add the species to each zoa! but (at least right now) that's way over my head, heh! we've started requiring flash shots for new submissions to the site. sounds like it might be a good idea to start requiring a 'closed polyp' shot too?
i.e. have the submitter agitate the polyps so we can see the mat/stalk/stripes/sand/etc.?
as this sounds like a critical key to proper identification. whatcha think?
.Zoanthus species/Samples
Zoanthus species/Samples
The number of species in Zoanthus is unknown and pretty open for speculation. A lot of species have been described and then redescribed with different names. Classification has been done up until recently strictly on morphology. Based on morphology and old literature, there are about 6-10 species in Japan. However, based on DNA (but not forgetting morphology) there are only 3-5 species in Japan (still speculation on a couple). So - worldwide over 150 species have been described, but I would bet there are maybe 20 or 30 maximum. I may be wrong. But samples I have from Indonesia and the Med come up as either the same species or very close to one of the species here in Japan. Similarly, DNA from other researchers from Zoanthus in the Atlantic match with one or two of the species we have in Japan. Hmmm.... The only thing I can say with certainty is that morph within species is REALLY variable.
I will work on the article next week in between experiments at work, and post maybe a draft or something on here. This is gonna be fun!
cheers,
j.
Zoanthus species/Samples
The number of species in Zoanthus is unknown and pretty open for speculation. A lot of species have been described and then redescribed with different names. Classification has been done up until recently strictly on morphology. Based on morphology and old literature, there are about 6-10 species in Japan. However, based on DNA (but not forgetting morphology) there are only 3-5 species in Japan (still speculation on a couple). So - worldwide over 150 species have been described, but I would bet there are maybe 20 or 30 maximum. I may be wrong. But samples I have from Indonesia and the Med come up as either the same species or very close to one of the species here in Japan. Similarly, DNA from other researchers from Zoanthus in the Atlantic match with one or two of the species we have in Japan. Hmmm.... The only thing I can say with certainty is that morph within species is REALLY variable.
I will work on the article next week in between experiments at work, and post maybe a draft or something on here. This is gonna be fun!
cheers,
j.
One more idea
One more idea
One thing I have been musing on, but don't know if it is possible.
Do any of you have samples of zoanthids from dealers or direct from nature where you know EXACTLY where the sample was from?
If you do, and think you have something really weird or new (and you don't mind parting with a polyp), you could preserve it and send it to me, I could run the DNA on it. I know lots of you wouldn't want to part with a precious sample, this might work better with some wholesalers.... However, any samples I would use in any paper would include your name in the table, and in acknowledgements. Not much I know - just keep imagining having samples from all over the world...
Would appreciate hearing your thoughts...
cheers,
j.
One more idea
One thing I have been musing on, but don't know if it is possible.
Do any of you have samples of zoanthids from dealers or direct from nature where you know EXACTLY where the sample was from?
If you do, and think you have something really weird or new (and you don't mind parting with a polyp), you could preserve it and send it to me, I could run the DNA on it. I know lots of you wouldn't want to part with a precious sample, this might work better with some wholesalers.... However, any samples I would use in any paper would include your name in the table, and in acknowledgements. Not much I know - just keep imagining having samples from all over the world...
Would appreciate hearing your thoughts...
cheers,
j.
surfnvb7
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7494257#post7494257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by whodah
i'll betcha there's some Floridian/Caribbean divers that could supply such examples/samples with GPS preciseness!
(wish i was one of 'em, heh!)
wow, that would be a great idea. but from articles i've read, it sounds like the companies that go diving for wild corals, arent very high tech, and are mostly run by local villagers from the local islands. and most of these guys free dive with just a snorkle. but yeah whodah, that would be really cool.
its ashame that the wholesalers at least dont tag them and say where they came from. after they leave the whole sale warehouse, i wouldnt trust the LFS's word on where they came from.
pix
pix
Hahaha - pix are important not only for the masses but for all the science geeks too - everyone seems to love zoanthid pics! Here is a link to a site for a science journal - they liked my Palythoa (Proto) pic so much they have used it on their site!
http://mc.manuscriptcentral.com/zs
Regarding samples, even not GPS coordinates, but a site name, relative lat and long, plus depth, and in situ photos would be all that would be needed.
^ j
pix
Hahaha - pix are important not only for the masses but for all the science geeks too - everyone seems to love zoanthid pics! Here is a link to a site for a science journal - they liked my Palythoa (Proto) pic so much they have used it on their site!
http://mc.manuscriptcentral.com/zs
Regarding samples, even not GPS coordinates, but a site name, relative lat and long, plus depth, and in situ photos would be all that would be needed.
^ j
gflat65
New member
If mine weren't all mutts, I'd send some. I'd love to know the recent beliefs on species name... I'll scout around and see if I have any I know came from a certain area, but it is unlikely. Is there a way to reliably group morphs together into a species based on colors, etc.? I know it wouldn't be an exact science with all of the differences, but... I'd be happy to send a polyp and picture of every one I have to know the species name. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that of the 50 or so morphs I have, I likely only have three or four different species (if that...).
more species notes
more species notes
Gflat,
Outside of the mouth of Z. gigantus, and the stripes on the outside of the polyp, there doesn't seem to be much that I can say reliably about species in terms of colors. Did I send you the pdfs on the Zoanthus species in Japan? If not let me know and I will send you them..
There are certain trends:
Z. sansibaricus has all types of color morphs. Often greens, reds, blues, and polyps with no stripes.
Z. kuroshio is "usually" lighter pink or blue, often in more of a mat form, or in other words polyps more commonly embedded in the coenenchyme.
That said, I have some samples from Indonesia, and all the color conclusions I had reached in Japan went out the window... I can probably guess correctly between these two species most of the time, but not all of the time. Z. gigantus I can usually identify correctly 95% plus of times. It is kind of a situation in that the more you look at various types the more you get a sense for "what is what" or "what might be what". From this success ratio, I really have not 100% confidence on samples from other places. Hence, I really would like to get my hands on more samples to see what is out there...mutts or not!
more species notes
Gflat,
Outside of the mouth of Z. gigantus, and the stripes on the outside of the polyp, there doesn't seem to be much that I can say reliably about species in terms of colors. Did I send you the pdfs on the Zoanthus species in Japan? If not let me know and I will send you them..
There are certain trends:
Z. sansibaricus has all types of color morphs. Often greens, reds, blues, and polyps with no stripes.
Z. kuroshio is "usually" lighter pink or blue, often in more of a mat form, or in other words polyps more commonly embedded in the coenenchyme.
That said, I have some samples from Indonesia, and all the color conclusions I had reached in Japan went out the window... I can probably guess correctly between these two species most of the time, but not all of the time. Z. gigantus I can usually identify correctly 95% plus of times. It is kind of a situation in that the more you look at various types the more you get a sense for "what is what" or "what might be what". From this success ratio, I really have not 100% confidence on samples from other places. Hence, I really would like to get my hands on more samples to see what is out there...mutts or not!
knowse
New member
J.
Will you be working on an identification key? I think that would be very useful and most of us regular type folk can use one. I have several for identifing different trees and shrubs, very useful.
Wouldn't it be better or at least easier to take color morphs out of the equation and just use the most common of physical features? I have long thought that simple identifiers were and have been needed for a long time. Colors morphs for the most part just make things harder.
Will you be working on an identification key? I think that would be very useful and most of us regular type folk can use one. I have several for identifing different trees and shrubs, very useful.
Wouldn't it be better or at least easier to take color morphs out of the equation and just use the most common of physical features? I have long thought that simple identifiers were and have been needed for a long time. Colors morphs for the most part just make things harder.
Hi Knowse/Sally,
Yeah, you are right in that color is best to be avoided when possible. Unfortunately, often the characteristics used to describe zoanthids (into genera and species) are internal features like mesentary count and muscle structure - not too useful for field ID. As well, Palythoa and Zoanthus seem to really change their external feautres like polyp and colony structure based on microenvironment (light, waves, current) - often I don't know whether I love or hate these things - haha...
So - I could probably make a species key using morph characteristics outside of color, but in a few cases (Z. gigantus) there are often (but not always) telltale color and pattern markings that can really be helpful.
I think for now I'll try to make a "genera key" - and then include some species in Palythoa and Zoanthus, with the caveat that this is a work in progress. As we all get more info then I can modify the tree as it goes. How does this sound?
zoanthid idiot j.
Yeah, you are right in that color is best to be avoided when possible. Unfortunately, often the characteristics used to describe zoanthids (into genera and species) are internal features like mesentary count and muscle structure - not too useful for field ID. As well, Palythoa and Zoanthus seem to really change their external feautres like polyp and colony structure based on microenvironment (light, waves, current) - often I don't know whether I love or hate these things - haha...
So - I could probably make a species key using morph characteristics outside of color, but in a few cases (Z. gigantus) there are often (but not always) telltale color and pattern markings that can really be helpful.
I think for now I'll try to make a "genera key" - and then include some species in Palythoa and Zoanthus, with the caveat that this is a work in progress. As we all get more info then I can modify the tree as it goes. How does this sound?
zoanthid idiot j.
knowse
New member
That sounds wonderful!!!
I would love to read your papers, would you email me the pdf's? knowse@bellsouth.net
I have some different types of zoanthid sp. I could send you samples of. If you'll let me know in the email how to ship them to you I'll be more than happy to do so.
Thanks,
I would love to read your papers, would you email me the pdf's? knowse@bellsouth.net
I have some different types of zoanthid sp. I could send you samples of. If you'll let me know in the email how to ship them to you I'll be more than happy to do so.
Thanks,
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