Need advice for my tank setup

[ej797]

Okay,

I am new to RC, and new to reef aquariums. I have maintained a 40 gal FO tank for a while some years ago. I have been reading for months and I am literally days from starting my build. I am planning on taking my time to build this system so I would like to discuss my plans with those of you willing to help out.

Let me explain what I have in mind, asking questions along the way. I recently came across an essentially cube shaped tank. It measures 28"w x 33.5"L x 30" H (inside dimensions) and has a capacity of 121 gallons. The glass is 1/2" thick, but I am not sure if it is tempered. It has a single overflow in the center of one of the 28" sides with two 1 3/4" holes drilled in the bottom of the overflow chamber.

*Question1* What would be the gph of each of these holes?

I am planning on setting up a reef tank. I have not decided what kind of coral I am going to keep. I am leaning towards hard coral but I like some soft coral too. I have read that it is not good to keep both hard and soft coral in the same tank. I have also read that it is okay if the soft coral is downstream from the hard coral

*Q2* Is it possible/practical to keep both?

After I make a home for the tank the first thing I would like to do is address the water flow of the tank. This is where things grow a little fussy. I am familiar with the typical overflow/sump/return system where the sump pump circulates the water back into the tank powerheads create much of the flow. I would like to make the plumbing as “invisible” as possible so power heads are out. I have done research on closed loop systems and water return manifolds but I am not sure what would be the best route for me. I understand that the amount of flow I can create from my sump is limited by the rate of flow through the holes at the bottom of the overflow chamber. It seems to me that it would be beneficial to create as much flow as possible from the sump pump because it would aid filtration. (Q3: Is this true?) I have read that the rate of flow through the sump should be between 4-6 times the volume of the tank per hour. (Q:4 Can it be more?).

*Q5* If I were to pump as much as possible through a sump pump would that provide me with adequate flow in the tank assuming proper placement and number of returns?

Sorry if that was long winded but I figure the more detail I put in the questions, the less work you guys have to do in your answers.

 

[zoomfish1]

With 1 3/4" holes I believe the flow would be in the 300gph range. Q. #2, you can keep all types of corals in the same tank as long as there is adequate room between them all. Routinely, soft corals (most don't require the intense light) would be placed low in a tank, LPS and SPS corals would inhabit the top regions of the tank. Most, but not all, SPS would be mounted closest to the lights.

Q. #3. You don't want much over 300-400gph of flow through the sump. If your skimmer is in the sump, it needs time with water contact to do the most efficient job.

Q. #4. No. I think you misunderstood some of the terminology used. First, the live rock in the tank is your filter. Have anywhere from 1-2lbs of rock per gallon of water in the system. In relation of flow, you would need 20 to 30 times gallons of flow in the tank. You can consider flow from the return pump in the ratio, but the majority of flow comes from either p[owerheads or a closed loop system, or a combination of both. I think that covered Q. #5.

Hope I didn't confuse you. As you think of more Q's, don't hesitate to ask. If you need clarification on any of my statements, ask away. I may have confused myself at some point.

 

[ej797]

Thanks for your help zoomfish,

Would the 300 GPH range be per hole or both combined.

Also, I understand that live rock is the main source of filtration in the system. However, I was under the impression that it is a good idea to supplement the live rock with biological filtration in the sump as well.

I am now considering using a closed loop system for most of the circulation within the tank. I am planning on drilling through the side of the tank (assuming it is not tempered) for the intake for the closed loop system. I would like to make the returns as hidden as possible. Is it possible to drill through the bottom of the tank to plumb all the returns? I have seen it done for 2 of the returns but not for all. Would this have a negative effect on the circulation in the tank? Is it better for the returns to be pointed down from the top of the tank? A mixture of both? Also how many returns would you recommend for a tank with my dimensions? Where would you place them? These questions may be premature because I have not decided on the structure of my live rock yet. I assume that the structure of the live rock may affect the placement of the returns.

I am planning on using a seperate pump or combination of pumps for the sump. I would like to use two external pumps for redundantcy. However, I am not sure exactly how to do this. My first thought was to connect the intake of both pumps directly to the sump and plump individual returns for each pump. But then I saw the set up for this months tank of the month and it shows the pumps plumbed in "series." From what I can tell from the pictures it seems like The output from one pump is plumbed directly to the input of the other. Is that the way it should be done? I have ran this through my head several times and can't seem to find a reason that the pumps cannont be independantly plumbed. If both are viable options is there any pluses or minus for each. Also, if I am looking at producing 400 GPH of flow through the sump do I just look for two pumps that would provide 200 GPH, taking into consideration head pressure.

Thanks

 

[jer77]

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The gph for each 1 3/4'' hole is 1800 gph each, but I would not do this much through your sump. I would use one hole for the return and one for the drain. You flow through the sump should be around 4-600 gph or around the skimmer pump's flow rating. So it really depends on what type of skimmer your using. It can be more though you have to be careful of microbubbles in your sump.

Yes you can keep all different types of coral in your tank. You just need to be aware of their husbantry issues, so you know where to place them, how far away to place them, and what to feed them, etc.

I don't know if you can drill in the bottom because its probably tempered because its a big tank. You should definately check this out before drilling.

About using two pumps, their inputs should never be plumbed together. This will create cavatation and a very loud pump. It is correct to plumb them inline one output to the others input. This creates a flow equal to the two pumps flow. There might be some cavatation issues though because you shouldn't have an elbow right before the input to a pump.

A closed loop is the best way to go for more flow if you don't want powerheads. You'll have to check into the tempered glass though.

 

[ej797]

Thanks Jer,

1800 GPH, awesome so one with a stand pipe and the other as the return for the sump.

As far as the dual pumps, I had read that you should never run the outputs of two pumps to the same return. The idea I had prior to seeing the tank of the month was to run two entirely separate pump systems between the sump and the tank. (i.e. 2 intakes from the sump and separate returns to the tank.) I like the idea of the pumps in series because there is less plumbing work. Is my idea of two entirely separate pump systems between the sump and the tank possible or would it create other problems? As far as the cavitations risk, I saw the tank of the month has a pump that has a horizontal return. Are such pumps readily available? Was that one modified? Could I mount one of the pumps on a vertical surface in order to eliminate the need for a 90 fitting?

With regards to the closed loop system, is it possible to create a closed loop system above the tank (keeping in mind lighting) to produce the proper flow in the tank? I would rather do this if it is possible. I know I asked about putting all the returns through the bottom of the tank. I am continuously battling myself regarding my ability to drill through glass. I am quite handy with tools I have been around construction all my life. On the other hand, I have never done it before and destroying my new tank is the last thing I want to do. It pretty much comes down to whether I can build an effective close loop system without drilling the tank. If I can’t and the tank is not tempered I am drilling! Oh, does anyone have a sure fire way to tell is the glass is tempered? I have read that I can look at it in sunlight with polarized glasses or try and score it with a glass cutter. I think I would rather score the tank behind the pre-filter then try and get this thing back outside.

Also, I live in Miami and I am confronted with hurricanes on a yearly basis. Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can create a backup system for my tank. I have a gasoline generator that should provide enough power once the storm is over. It is the time between when the power goes out until the time I can get outside to run the generator that worries me. If a bad storm came through it could be close to 24 hours. Maybe a 12 volt pump connected to a car battery or two? I don’t now but it is something I worry about.

After reading a little bit more I think I should have started this thread on the DIY forum. Is there any way to change it or should I just start another?

Thanks,

 

[ej797]

I guess "my idea" is called connecting the pumps in parallel. Maybe, it wasn't a ground breaking thought but I guess it works.

 

[ej797]

Okay,

So I found a graph on another thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=694341&perpage=25&pagenumber=13

It seems to me to show that connecting the pumps in series will not allow you to increase the GPH above the maximum that a single pump will produce but will allow you to overcome a greater head pressure than a singl pump could. On the other hand, connecting the pumps in parrallel does not allow you to overcome the maximum head pressure of a single pump but it does allow you to increase the GPH above the maximum of a single pump. Does this sound correct?

Sorry for the multiple posts, I have just become a little addicted to this whole process. I definitly have the bug. I am already talking about a second tank with my wife! I haven't even figured out how I am going to afford to get this one running.

EJ

 

[jer77]

What you found on that web page is very interesting. You get more pressure when its in series, which won't increase the flow. It might increase the gph through the plumbing but to an extent. Cause there is a limit to how much water can flow through the pipe. Plumbing them in parallel will increase the flow rate.

Did this tank of the month have the inputs to the pumps tee'd together? I don't really know if you should do this or not. Maybe if the plumbing was bigger in the sections it needed to be. You might be able to do this with your outputs too. You could tee them together because you have a 1 3/4'' bulkhead. What size pumps are you talking about here? I'm not sure what the horizontal returns are.

About your CL, I don't really know what you mean by plumbing it above your tank. Where would it go? There is a way to go over the top, but you said you didn't want any plumbing in sight.

 

[bbehring]

I think he's talking about Anthony Calfo's version of the closed look from his book of coral propagation, no?

 

[ej797]

J: The tank of the month is this months tank of the month. (March 2007). What I mean by horizontal return is that the return side of the pump exits horizontal to the mount. It seems that the output of the first pump goes directly to the input of the second pump with just a small piece of straight pipe. You can see this on the tank of the month refered to earlier.

B: I don't have any particular closed loop system in mind yet. I just know that I do not want power heads. I plan on providing flow in the tank by taking water directly from the tank and pumping it back into the tank through a number of returns.

Thanks,

 

[ej797]

I started a new thread in the DIY section in order to discuss this build:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067997

 

[jer77]

I believe the reason why the TOTM uses two pumps in series besides redundancy is that his sump is located in the basement, so he needs the extra pressure. This would make sense if you had lots of head pressure to overcome. Like if you were to run a manifold off your return pump, or if you have to pump the water through lots of plumbing, or maybe if you use eductors which need a minimum amount of pressure.

For your system I believe plumbing the pumps in parallel would make more sense in your system, if you use like two 300gph pumps.

It was my mistake the the holes didn't have bulkheads in them already. Yes the 1 3/4'' holes use a 1'' bulkhead for 600 gph each. So unless you drill some more holes or go over the top with the retuern then you can only have 600 gph through the sump and return through the other bulkhead.

Well for the closed loop do you want it to go over the top? You can use as much flow as you really want for this. eductors might be a nice advantage too.

For the LR I believe what you want to de will be fine. As for TBS rock IMO most of the growth will die off especially if you want to keep hard corals and sps because your tank should be nutrient poor. There is cheaper rock out there too that has lots of coralline algae on it. Look at www.reefscience.com , www.premiumaquatics.com , www.pacificeastaquaculture.com , www.reefermadness.com , and lots of others.

About keeping soft and hard corals I do it in my frag tank. I keep toadstool leathers, which tend to release the most noxious stuff of most soft corals. Just as long as you don't do any fragging in the main tank and run carbon you should be fine.

For the hurricane power outage stuff, you can look into a battery powered air pump, which should keep your fish and corals from dying. You should take the tops off of everything to aerate the water. Heres a good article about this stuff www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/feature.htm.