Need help with deep Sand bed

[Reefin' Dude]

Thanks for all the info.
To push it further would the following be a good plan to deal with Phosphates and nitrates or do you suggest any different approach?
-RDSB to take out or bind to whatever it does Nitrates and phosphates.
-Fuge which does make better breeding ground for pods. agree that pods need food and rapid growing population means added nutrients but then again we always add nutrients to our tanks in one form or another so a form that is suitable for pod specific eating fish isn't that bad . I also believe it makes better breeding ground than bare sump glass for breeding pods.
-Complement whatever Phosphate and Nitrates not taken out by above using either water changes (gets costly and labor intensive for some) or vodka dosing or BP?
Very interested in hearing your approach on how to ideally deal with both phosphate and Nitrate as so far no method has proven to deal with both efficiently on its own.

RDSB, live sumps, ... are all glorified names for a settling tank. why not just make a settling tank and call it good. we have several people having good success using one of these instead of the more "traditional" devices.

conical settling tank. the detritus falls to the bottom. there is an inlet and an outlet higher up in the tank. once a week, just turn the valve on the bottom and all detritus is removed. make the tank work for you instead of the other way.

the more flow in the display, the more detritus that will make it to the settling tank. in my system, link provided later. i very seldom had to take a siphon to my display. all of the detritus collected in the sump. i was not able to incorporate the conical settling tank in the system before i had to take it down. i still have the tank and plan on using that one, or a bigger one on the new system.

We never see the tanks of the experts. There are quite a few here on RC, that pontificate, but you don't see so much as a polyp from them.

link to my build thread. had to take it down because of a divorce. have not been able to build a new system because of moving and getting life back in order.

here is another link from somebody that only the old schoolers on this site would remember. for those that are interested in getting to the nuts and bolts of the processes that go on in our systems should look up the posts from Bomber.

Which forms of organic phosphate are you concerned about? Which specific molecules, I mean.

it is the phosphates themselves that i am concerned about. it doesn't matter if P is inorganic or organic, it is still in the system. we want the P to only be in the food we feed and the organisms we want.

I've only ever read about PO4 having a proven negative impact on calcification. Do you mean the phosphate found in living things? If so, I don't see how that can be considered a negative.

loose PO4 binds to calcium carbonate making it more difficult for hermatypic organisms to perform photosynthesis.

Phosphates and the Reef Aquarium has some on this. point number 5. Calcification Inhibition by Phosphate

i am still doing more research on this phosphate rabbit hole, but here is a good thread that has gotten me started.

an article to read, not sure how interested you are.

A COMPARTMENTAL APPROACH TO THE MECHANISM OF CALCIFICATION IN HERMATYPIC CORALS

G~

 

[Bilk]

RDSB, live sumps, ... are all glorified names for a settling tank. why not just make a settling tank and call it good. we have several people having good success using one of these instead of the more "traditional" devices.

conical settling tank. the detritus falls to the bottom. there is an inlet and an outlet higher up in the tank. once a week, just turn the valve on the bottom and all detritus is removed. make the tank work for you instead of the other way.

the more flow in the display, the more detritus that will make it to the settling tank. in my system, link provided later. i very seldom had to take a siphon to my display. all of the detritus collected in the sump. i was not able to incorporate the conical settling tank in the system before i had to take it down. i still have the tank and plan on using that one, or a bigger one on the new system.



link to my build thread. had to take it down because of a divorce. have not been able to build a new system because of moving and getting life back in order.

here is another link from somebody that only the old schoolers on this site would remember. for those that are interested in getting to the nuts and bolts of the processes that go on in our systems should look up the posts from Bomber.



it is the phosphates themselves that i am concerned about. it doesn't matter if P is inorganic or organic, it is still in the system. we want the P to only be in the food we feed and the organisms we want.



loose PO4 binds to calcium carbonate making it more difficult for hermatypic organisms to perform photosynthesis.

Phosphates and the Reef Aquarium has some on this. point number 5. Calcification Inhibition by Phosphate

i am still doing more research on this phosphate rabbit hole, but here is a good thread that has gotten me started.

an article to read, not sure how interested you are.

A COMPARTMENTAL APPROACH TO THE MECHANISM OF CALCIFICATION IN HERMATYPIC CORALS

G~

I can certainly appreciate the issues that arrive from the curveballs life throws at us. Divorce is never fun. Hope things have turned for the better.

I've been looking thru the links you provided and will need more time to digest them, though I do have one question. If CaCO3 is such a good binder of P then why don't we just use it in reactors? It would be much cheaper than the current media people utilize. Oh, I guess I have another question. Can PO4 bound to CaCO3 be released back into the water column?

I like the idea of the settling tank That particular one is too big for the space I have available. I'm sure something similar can be put together that takes up less space.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

I can certainly appreciate the issues that arrive from the curveballs life throws at us. Divorce is never fun. Hope things have turned for the better.

they have, but it takes a while to get houses and spouses up to the idea of large tanks.

I've been looking thru the links you provided and will need more time to digest them, though I do have one question. If CaCO3 is such a good binder of P then why don't we just use it in reactors? It would be much cheaper than the current media people utilize. Oh, I guess I have another question. Can PO4 bound to CaCO3 be released back into the water column?

they can be. they have a few drawbacks, but these are the same drawbacks that keep people from wanting shallow substrates. it would need to be changed much more often, than the current crop of P reactors. the binding force on calcium carbonate is weaker than that for the GFO and the aluminum oxide. this means that the P can be released easier from the calcium carbonate. yes, the P can be released back into the water column, but through bacterial action. bacteria are needed to break free the P from the calcium carbonate. they do not seem to be able to do it as easily from GFO and aluminum oxide, so these are more forgiving. the aragonite will work just as well, but when it fills up, it needs to be removed. the high flow through the reactor speeds up the process. if aragonite is to be used it makes more sense to use it in a RDSB. this makes the most of the use of both the aragonite, bacteria, and the organisms to make it the biggest sink possible.

I like the idea of the settling tank That particular one is too big for the space I have available. I'm sure something similar can be put together that takes up less space.

any empty sump is a settling tank. just leave it as empty as possible. there are some people putting angled baffles in a sump with a valved outlet at the bottom of the angled baffle. we have all been creating these area, they have just been labeled as something else. we do not need to change anything about how we setup our systems. we just need to think about what we need to do to see the detritus instead of hiding it. the easier it is to see the easier it is to get it out.

G~

 

[maroun.c]

Agreed to the benefits of a settling tank or just a well maintained filter sock (if one has the time and will) . I see it will minimize detritus processing yet there will always be detritus collecting in the tank regardless how strong is the flow and tank sump turnover. It will slow down the increase in N & P levels but they'll still rise eventually so how do you deal with those?
Sources of phosphate and nitrate in a tank can also be other than detritus ( Exhausted DI, Fish Urine, phosphate or nitrate as impurities in whatever we dose be it just 2 part for those who don't dose anything else...)
Those will need to be processed, so basically back to the basics: skimmer, water changes, Carbon dosing or biopellets. But I still don't see why an RDSB or a Fuge won't help here and why they are a bad thing to have?

 

[Reefin' Dude]

i am not sure i understand how there will always be detritus collecting? where would it collect if everything was BB? (not saying we all should run BB regardless, just using as an example) if you can see it, then it can be siphoned away. a properly sized skimmer with UV pre feeder can take care of the rest after more bacterial intervention.

if the environment wanting to be emulated needs low levels of inorganic P and N available, then having a RDSB or live sump can be a good thing. these do a fantastic job of maintaining low levels of these for the life of the phosphate sink. for those wanting levels close to natural ocean water levels, will find it difficult to reach those levels with one of these in the system without additional resources. the additional resources being the bio-pellets/carbon dosing/Ca reactors/additional lighting. these are all extra resources needed to counter the affects of the live sump/RDSB has lost its ability to sink more phosphates, and the left overs are making their way into the general water column. if one were to replace the RDSB/live sump when these other resources are needed, then all is good. it seems counterproductive to have something in the system that needs to be corrected in the long term by other resources. this hobby is expensive enough. why make it more expensive than necessary?

these are all different tools. it is important to know what the tools can and can not do to make the most use out of them. we unfortunately keep chasing our tails when it comes to phosphates because we have not been completely informed about how they are used in our systems and their affects.

G~