Need help with fish in QT

[graveyardworm]

I have successfully brought many fish through QT with very similar set ups. I was trying to figure out what was wrong with the fish. Not how I could do my QT differently or which copper treatment was the most popular. Unless you can provide specific reasons with backing about why the copper I used was inferior. I am very open to listen, but some of the responses indicated that my posts werent even read through. The first posts were helpful in asking questions, and some suggestions on what could be wrong. No one even remarked on the photo of the sick fish. I was hoping to figure out what was wrong to possibly save the last fish. I consider myself to be an experienced aquarist, but boy do I have a lot to learn. When I run into a problem I cant diagnose I do ask. Just a bit frustrated with some of the responses.

 

[LargeAngels]

It was most likely velvet, but could possibly also been flukes. Angels and anthias are known to be infested with flukes. A FW dip would have helped as flukes and velvet fall off in FW dips (but it doesn't kill the eggs) so you could at least have seen if the fish had either of these. Flukes is generally treated with Prazipro and it does not affect the biological filter. Copper is the only treatment for velvet. There are differences in copper medications. Seachem's Cupramine is a very affective copper treatment which is tolerated by even copper sensitive fish, does not get absorbed as quickly by calcerous substances and from what I have seen does not affect the biological filtration.

 

[LargeAngels]

From a writeup leebca did on Reefland about copper. Cupramine falls in the last catagory.

COPPER MEDICATION DEVELOPMENT

Copper Salt (Cu2+, cationic or ionic copper)
At first the basic copper medication was a water mixture of a copper salt (e.g., copper sulfate). The copper concentration in this form is hard to control in saltwater. Copper in this form will easily complex with carbonates -- even carbonates that were in the salt water making up the alkalinity! The copper would precipitate out of its dissolved state and no longer be available to do the job of killing off the parasites. These medications I remember well. When added to the aquarium water, there would be a 'cloud' of bluish-white haze in the aquarium water. This was some of the copper coming out of solution.

Controlling the copper concentration in this form was a problem for the aquaculture industry, and a nightmare for the hobbyist. The aquaculture industry had neither the time or the money to keep testing their water to hold the copper in the 'effective range' to kill the MI and MV, yet not kill their stock. This copper was so 'effective' at killing (even fish) that some fish just couldn't even live in the concentration it took to kill the MI and MV. By this, I mean to make clear that the copper in this form is very lethal even to the fish it is supposed to treat. This copper medication isn't even considered a choice by today's standards.

Chelated CopperThe next major development in the medication, was to 'protect' the copper from complexing and coming out of solution so readily with the carbonates in the water. Thus came the 'chelated copper' medications. (Chelated is pronounced KEY'lated). The copper was more reliable for staying in solution. What was done was to shield the copper ion with a weak, very large molecule (e.g., Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid or EDTA) The copper ion still complexed with carbonates and the copper still precipitated out of solution, but not as much. The chelated copper was more stable compared to the plain copper salt medications. More fish now could be treated with this form of copper. But the most sensitive of fishes (e.g., dwarf angelfishes, some large angelfishes, some tangs, and scaleless fishes (sharks, rays, etc.)) could not be treated with this form of copper.

Complexed Copper
The serious breakthrough came when the copper, instead of protected by a weak complex in the chelated form, could be chemically bonded to a protein molecule. In this case, the copper is still lethal to the MI and MV, but it keeps an arm's length away from affecting the fish. It resists complexing with carbonates making the concentration much easier to control and to get to remain steady. This copper form could now be used on any ornamental fish, and scaleless fish. This complexed copper is safe and yet effective at killing off MI and MV.

 

[graveyardworm]

Thanks Large Angels. Given that I have now encountered MV. I'm going to have to assume that all fish I purchase potentially have the disease. Now that it has become real to me, and my QT setup and new fish treatment may need to be revisited. I have used the sterile QT approach in the past and with success. So I may go back to it. I do like providing a more comfortable environment for the new fish so I'm thinking some reef-safe plastic decorations, and or different rock.

What proceedures do you use for new additions? Freshwater dips scare me a bit, and I would rather not use madications if its not necessary, but the way this parasite snuck up and killed so fast really has me thinking.

 

[graveyardworm]

dbl post

 

[graveyardworm]

Thanks Large Angels. Given that I have now encountered MV. I'm going to have to assume that all fish I purchase potentially have the disease. Now that it has become real to me, and my QT setup and new fish treatment may need to be revisited. I have used the sterile QT approach in the past and with success. So I may go back to it. I do like providing a more comfortable environment for the new fish so I'm thinking some reef-safe plastic decorations, and or different rock.

What proceedures do you use for new additions? Freshwater dips scare me a bit, and I would rather not use madications if its not necessary, but the way this parasite snuck up and killed so fast really has me thinking.

 

[LargeAngels]

All of my new fish go through two 7 day treatments of Prazipro along with Cupramine and then another 4 weeks of just Cupramine. Most important thing is an already established biofilter and NEVER mix anything else with Cupramine (water conditioners, etc) as it can have deadly affects. That can be done by either running at QT tank all the time, or taking part of the main tanks biofilter and placing in QT. I also always have a Seachem ammonia alert badge in the tank and some already made SW for water changes. The QT tank can have some rock and sand (used only for QT), but you will have to keep a closer eye on copper concentration and add more copper until the level has stabilized.

 

[Kieth71]

I honestly dont think there is alot to be done when velvet is involved.You either catch it quick and use copper or your up the creek.I think your qt procedure is just fine.I never start with the qt with medication and usually wait till the fish are eating well then start with the medication unless i can spot something like velvet where death is a for sure thing.I use a sterile qt but there are alot of people that use live rock in the qt as well and may remove it when they add medication or account for it when useing copper with it as largeangels mentioned above.The one thing you have done which more people should pay attention to is saved your entire dt bye qting in the first place which is little consolation to your lost fish but is a lesson to those who dont qt at all.I use cupramine as well when i use copper but i know people that have used the copper you used with success.I am not a big fan of freshwater dips but have done it to give short relief to a fish that was infested with flukes and then prazipro finished the job.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The trick to a good QT is to treat it just like a main tank.

With at least one major execption.

The microbes desirable in a DT are more diverse than in a QT.

In a QT, one is concerned about ammonia, not nitrate.

A QT needs nitrification, not denitrification.

Center on nitrification in QT, the best possible with occasional limitations (rare needs of a drug that affects nitrification bacteria gravely.)

No MH lighting, etc, needed unless you are Qting corals by isolation from fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Aside from one of the pieces which is reasonably cycled rock it is all well established rock and came from my main system. I used to use the sterile QT approach and had good result with it, but thought I would go more natural. I've done it this way and have read of its use. Unfortunatly medication cant be performed with all that life in there so its removed while I medicate, or treat.

Unless someone tells me otherwise based on my description and picture that the problem is ammonia I'm going to believe this is likely some sort of infection like velvet, or something else and will continue to QT in this fashion. I'm fairly certain it isnt ammonia.

Sterile QT, without nitrification, in general is a very bad idea. If you have not treated actively against ich for eight or more weeks, ich would remain a problem in DT. If you are going to treat in QT for eight or more weeks, you will certainly want to have nitrification in QT. Otherwise, you will be doing a lot of extra work with WC and/or your fish will be exposed to ammonia for too long. The ill-effects of ammonia exposure may take a long time to show, as internal problems, wasting away.

The use of large LR pieces in QT is not a good idea per se, due to the bulkiness. In addition, when the LR already has growth on them other than bacteria, there dieoff during drug or hypo treatment will pollute the QT water.

The older pre-LR filtration setups are better for fish QT, in general. LR is in general (except rubbles) not a good choice as the medium of filtration for a QT.