need help with tight close ups please

V

vbsaltydog

Member
I am no photographer by any stretch of the imagination. I recently decided to get a camera so I can get close ups of my corals because there is so much detail that can't be seen with the naked eye plus the high res pics help with trading corals.

I took a day or two to read up on things like how the ISO affects how fast the camera reacts to light ? and how the aperture affects the depth of field ? I also read about the fundamentals of optical zoom and digital zoom and how the white balance sets the stage for the camera's processing of color adjustments so I am not completely ignorant on the photography topic but a noob for sure.

I bought a Nikon Coolpix P80 for its 18x optical zoom and manual focus controls. It seems to have have all of the functions that I needed (except for raw mode) and I did not want to break the $250 margin so the G10 and any DSLR's were too expensive.

I have been playing around with the camera on a tripod and it seems good for macro and wide angle shots outside of the aquarium and under light temperatures that the camera understands but when I go to shooting the tank it gets much harder.

I know the MH and actinic lights cause issues and that shooting through the glass/water are not easy either. These points aside, I need help with getting tight photos of my corals. I am confused about using macro, zoom, a combination of both, or manual. If manual, do I start with macro and then use the manual focus vs. auto focus or shoot full manual and set everything myself?

I have done a few close ups that were OK but it was more luck than skill and I need to know the formula so it can be reproduced. Do I shoot in 10mp or 1:1 or what? If I shoot with the zoom off and in macro mode with 10mp then I can open the file in photoshop and get a nice shot of the coral that was the focus of the shot but I don't get the very tight macro details. If I use the zoom then I get in tight on the coral but when in PS, if I go to actual pixels, the focal point of the shot is blurry and looks horrible.

Please help. I am trying to take shots of corals that are close enough to see the mouths in fine detail. The camera, although not a DSLR, should do this I would think given 18x optical zoom and macro focus ability at 1cm.

Thanks for helping.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
I am no photographer by any stretch of the imagination. I recently decided to get a camera so I can get close ups of my corals because there is so much detail that can't be seen with the naked eye plus the high res pics help with trading corals.
Click to expand...
High res pics of detail which can't be seen with the naked eye is a true photography application. These aren't snap shots of your 3 year old blowing out her birthday candles. First and foremost you need the proper equipment capable of doing this, and you will need the knowledge to use this equipment effectively.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
I took a day or two to read up on things like how the ISO affects how fast the camera reacts to light ? and how the aperture affects the depth of field ? I also read about the fundamentals of optical zoom and digital zoom and how the white balance sets the stage for the camera's processing of color adjustments so I am not completely ignorant on the photography topic but a noob for sure.
Click to expand...
It is good you are reading up on this stuff. Without a proper understanding of aperture you will never get predictable closeups with any camera. This isn't to say you won't get lucky now and then, but you have to understand this stuff. Optical zoom and digital zoom is easy. Optical zoom is everything, don't ever use digital zoom...EVER. White balance is easily tackled with a RAW capable camera.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
I bought a Nikon Coolpix P80 for its 18x optical zoom and manual focus controls. It seems to have have all of the functions that I needed (except for raw mode) and I did not want to break the $250 margin so the G10 and any DSLR's were too expensive.
Click to expand...
One thing you need to understand is that 18x optical zoom is a pretty meaningless figure. 18x optical zoom can be 1mm-18mm or 10mm-180mm or 1000mm-18,000mm (wouldn't that be the day). A common misconception is that more zoom is better zoom. This is not the case. The longer a lens' zoom range (18x is a LOT), the less quality will be found within that range. The highest quality lenses don't zoom at all. These are called "prime" lenses. Almost all of those high powered zoom lenses in the NFL are "1xzoom" or "primes". NOTICE: Every quality DSLR macro lens used for closeup photos of corals are 1x zoom! There isn't a single high quality macro lens which zooms in and out. Not one! I see you do not have RAW mode. :(

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
I have been playing around with the camera on a tripod and it seems good for macro and wide angle shots outside of the aquarium and under light temperatures that the camera understands but when I go to shooting the tank it gets much harder.
Click to expand...
You are using a tripod! Hurray!!!!!!!! Sadly your lack of RAW is going to make correcting your tank light temperatures a living hell. This is why we stress RAW so much. In a reef tank its pretty much a necessity unless you just don't care about color accuracy.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
I know the MH and actinic lights cause issues and that shooting through the glass/water are not easy either. These points aside, I need help with getting tight photos of my corals. I am confused about using macro, zoom, a combination of both, or manual. If manual, do I start with macro and then use the manual focus vs. auto focus or shoot full manual and set everything myself?
Click to expand...
Everyone stresses that the DSLR guys use manual focus for macros. DSLRs use a ring on the lens which physically moves the elements inside. This provides pin-point focusing accuracy for narrow depth of field. Point and shoot cameras usually have a button or ring which when used, tells a motor inside of the lens to focus in and out for you. This is terribly inaccurate and is a far cry from the "manual focus" you hear of on these boards. You may have to focus by physically moving the camera closer or farther from the subject after focusing as close as you can. The automatic focus in point and shoots unfortunately isn't much better. They simply aren't built with aquariums in mind.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
Do I shoot in 10mp or 1:1 or what?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. 10mp hand 1:1 have nothing to do with eachother.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
If I shoot with the zoom off and in macro mode with 10mp then I can open the file in photoshop and get a nice shot of the coral that was the focus of the shot but I don't get the very tight macro details. If I use the zoom then I get in tight on the coral but when in PS, if I go to actual pixels, the focal point of the shot is blurry and looks horrible.
Click to expand...
Again I am not sure what you are saying...
Shoot with zoom off? You mean shoot without digital zoom? Again NEVER...EVER...shoot with digital zoom. You can crop it yourself.
If you are referring to optical zoom, you have to refocus on the coral after you zoom.

Okay...I just looked up your specific camera and I think I have found the problem. You are attributing a super zoom point and shoot to a super macro point and shoot. They are NOT the same thing. This camera was built for soccer fields, air shows, auto races, ect. This camera is designed to shoot subjects which are FAR AWAY. You are trying to shoot a subject that is very close and the two don't match.
This setup has a lot of good uses, like what I mentioned earlier. If you bought this camera specifically for your tank however, you bought the wrong camera. Unless your tank is 30 feet deep from the front of the glass to the back of the wall, aka a sea world shark tank, the camera just wasn't built for this stuff. A G10 would be a FAR better option and I hope you will consider it.

You shouldn't have to zoom in much at all. Basically you should be using your camera at the wide end (zoomed almost all the way out). Your 500mm equivalent lens is crazy long and only hurting your images. I'm sorry but that is just the way it is. This is not a fish tank camera.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14466130#post14466130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
Please help. I am trying to take shots of corals that are close enough to see the mouths in fine detail. The camera, although not a DSLR, should do this I would think given 18x optical zoom and macro focus ability at 1cm.
Click to expand...
Your camera can't do this, at least not well. Like I said before...your 18x optical zoom is for taking pictures of air planes a mile away. Unless you are literally 1cm from the mouth of your coral, the macro focus ability is being wasted as well. You are trying to take DSLR images without a DSLR and you see the results. I don't think you're doing anything wrong technically, you just don't have the proper equipment to do what you want. The camera is relatively inexpensive, and I sympathize with you not wanting to spend a lot of money. If this camera was capable of taking the detailed images of corals like you see on these boards, we would be using a $200 P80 instead of a $2000 DSLR. What you are trying to do isn't even in G10 territory. You need a proper DSLR with a proper lens for this kind of stuff. Harsh but true.
 
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Thank you for your detailed response. I think that given the cost of a camera that captures the super fine details, I will just use what I got for an all purpose camera. It does take sweet macros outside of the aquarium and like you said, is good for outdoor applications with long range targets. I used the flash on my aquarium with the lights off and played with some settings and I think I can get the shots I need. Granted they are not the DSLR shots but they meet my needs, the price is affordable, and I do not have the time to become an expert photographer given all of the external influences on the shot. I have a new found respect for photographers that deliver high quality images.

Anyway, here is an example of my current skill level with my p80 and I have only had it for 2 days and I don't know much about the math that goes into calculating for the shot.

xenia.jpg


Thanks again for your help.
 
I think the glass of the tank is distorting this one. Make sure the lens is perfectly perpendicular to the plane of the glass. I also think acrylic tanks are much less forgiving than glass tanks...errrr...high quality glass tanks.
 
Yeah, it is a bowfront which probably has something to do with the distortion. I have read a few of your posts and I think I am going to change to the G10. It seems to be well worth the extra cost. Circuit City's liquidation has them on sale for $350
 
Oh yeah it will be well worth your while! The G10 is the best point and shoot camera for reef tanks out there IMO. You should research an underwater case, photobox, or something similar that will let you take good top down shots. Bowfronts are neat looking but nasty for photography unfortunately. :(

If you have a bowfront I would actually look for a water proof camera which is good with macro's. I'll see what I can come up with in that respect.
 
No kidding I used to work as a BMW mechanic at The Imported Car Store at ?Hibiscus? and US1. I think it was Hibiscus...192 at any rate.
 
I am on A1A at the foot of the Eau Gallie Causeway. Not too far from the BMW dealership you mentioned. Are you a member of the Brevard Area Reefer's Society (B.A.R.S.) ?
 
Yes, it was reefers.org They don't use that anymore from what I understand. I am not a member currently so I'm not sure though. I bet they got tons of traffic not related to reef tanks. :smokin:

Given the bowfront, should I still pursue the G10 ?
 
Mmmm I'm not sure as we haven't figure out how to conquer your bowfront yet. The G10 is IMO the most capable camera you can buy short of a DSLR, so there is no problem there...but even a DSLR is going to have problems with the bowed front. This is why I was looking into underwater cameras which would allow us to get behind the distorting glass. Lets look at a full tank shot and see exactly what the situation looks like. I am assuming you have two sides of a cube backed squarely against the wall with a curved plain connecting them.

I really think getting the camera under the water is the best way to go about this. You can make a "photo box" for relatively cheap. This is basically a nano tank which peaks beneath the surface of the water in your own tank. the camera is placed inside the nano and it can look around. If you find a better method, a pair of sexy shrimp might not overstock it! :)

But lets see a full tank shot so the situation is better understood.
 
Because of the reflections of the glass, flash shouldn't be used.

Put the camera on your tripod. Switch to Aperture mode (Av). Set your ISO to 100. Set your Aperture to f/5.6. If the shutter speed (which the camera selects for you) is slower than 1/30, widen your aperture to f/4 or f/2.8. If the picture is too dark or bright, move the exposure compensation slider (located in the bottom center). This will change the shutter speed originally recommended by the camera.

Experiment with how fast of a shutter speed you really need. IMO you should never use an ISO above 400.

Unfortunately the curvature of your bowfront is going to present all sorts of problems. I was hoping we could move the tank out from the wall and get a few shots, but the sides are painted black. I have to go to school but I'll try to come up with something later tonight.
 
Are you talking about for close ups of the corals? If so, how far should the camera be from the glass? Should I zoom in on the coral first and then adjust the manual focus? How tight should I zoom in? You said to set it to aperture mode. Is this better than manual mode? Is aperture mode going to set to raw or do I need to go to raw first, then aperture mode, then make your suggested adjustments, then zoom, then focus?

Sorry for being such a noob but there are lots of settings and I am just a bit confused on the procedure from the beginning of the composition to the pressing of the shutter release.

Can you explain the macro shot in a linear fashion like:

set to raw --> set to aperture mode --> adjust ISO --> adjust shutter speed --> zoom on coral --> adjust focus --> press shutter release.

I have a grasp of what all of the settings do I am just a bit lost on when to combine this with that.

BTW: This is a nice camera.

Thank you again.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14473118#post14473118 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vbsaltydog
You said to set it to aperture mode. Is this better than manual mode? Is aperture mode going to set to raw or do I need to go to raw first, then aperture mode, then make your suggested adjustments, then zoom, then focus?
Click to expand...

In Aperture mode, you set the aperture, the camera will determine the shutter speed on its own. In Manual mode, you set both the aperture and shutter speed yourself. This can easily result in underexposed or overexposed shots. Personally I shoot in Aperture mode at least 90% of the time (not just for aquarium shots). This allows you to control the depth of field, not the camera. Setting the aperture wide open (the lowest number your lens allows) results in the most possible light passing through the lens. However, most lenses aren't quite as sharp wide open as they are stepped down 2-3 stops. So if 2.8 is the widest your lens allows, try shooting at F4 or 5.6 for the best sharpness. The downside is that stopping the aperture down reduces the amount of light hitting the sensor, necessitating a longer shutter speed which can lead to blurry photos. Stopping the aperture back also gives you more depth of field. At F11, the depth of field (the area of the photo that's in focus) will be much larger than at F2.8. However, as mentioned above, F11 will require a longer shutter speed, making it difficult to snap a fast moving fish without it streaking and resorting to ISO 1600 which will make your photo very grainy.

Aperture mode has nothing to do with RAW mode. RAW mode just describes the file format in which the image is saved. RAW uses much more disk space, but saves more details and most importantly allows you to easily tweak the white balance in Photoshop or other tools. If you save as JPEG, it's very difficult to get the light color just right, even if your camera lets you set a custom white balance before the shot (I'm sure the G10 does). You can save in RAW format in any mode of the camera most likely (aperture, shutter, manual, etc). This is likely found in the menu of your camera. Once set, it will save all photos in RAW format until you change it.[/B][/QUOTE]
 
On second thought, dont worry about the step by step. I appreciate your help to this point. I am going to read the camera manual and a few tutorials online and get it done. Thanks again. You have been a big help.
 
We were both posting at the same time. Thank you for the latest post. It was very enlightening. I am reading the manual now to get familiar with all of the functions of the camera and with my new understanding of aperture mode and how it works I think I am getting closer to taking a decent photo.

So for a close up shot of a coral where I want the coral itself in focus and everything else out of focus I set a higher aperture number so the depth of field is shallow and then focus on the coral, yes?

Should I be using the optical zoom and if so, how close should I get? As close as possible while still being able to get a sharp focus on the coral makes sense? right?

I am assuming that I am in aperture mode, saving in RAW format, and using manual focus. Is this correct?
 
Well,

I have been reading and shooting and the camera is very nice but the glass is making any close up focused shot very difficult so I guess I am going to have to setup a 10 gallon tank, move my subjects to it , photograph them, and move them back to the display tank. This is not the ideal solution but it seems to be the only practical one.

Thanks again for all of your help.
 
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