Need Ich Advice Quickly

[BGFOWLRGUY]

I have a 165 gallon FOWLR. I QT new purchases religiously for 4 weeks minimum but until my last fish purchase I did not do a preventive treatment for ich, only observation. A few months ago I had a mild case of ich. I have a 29 gallon QT tank but not enough space to treat all the fish from the 165 so I treated the big tank with Cupramine. I removed all of the live rock I could put in the 29 along with all the snails and crabs. I wanted to remove all of the rocks but was afraid I would have no biological filter. I left the rock, snails, and crabs in QT with no fish for 12 weeks. I used the Cupramine for 4 weeks. I was fortunate to not lose a fish. I thought I was past that problem so I bought another fish and QT'd it with a pair of Clownfish someone gave me. This time I did a preventive treatment with Cupramine following Seachem instructions and a treatment with Prazipro. The 3 new fish have been in the big tank for 1 week and now I have ich again. My guess is the new fish did not bring it in and it was still in the 165. How can I
get the ich out of the tank completely. Thank you in advance for any help you can give me.

 

[snorvich]

To remove ich from a tank with 100% certainty, you will need to leave it fallow without fish for 72 days. While treating with a therapeutic dose of copper for four weeks will work most of the time, you would have to keep it at that level for longer (as much as 72 days) for guaranteed results. Anything which causes the level of copper to dip below therapeutic levels will reset the clock. Prevention of ich is best done with tank transfer.

 

[Deinonych]

Prevention of ich is best done with tank transfer.

+1

Chemical treatments for ich only target the swimming (theront) stage, so unless you treat for 72 days, there is still a chance for reinfection. Tank transfer targets the highly predictable post-feeding stage, so it is about as close to 100% guaranteed as you can get in this hobby.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

Thanks for the replies. I have no place to put the fish for 72 days. Couldn't I throw out the sand, remove the rocks and give them a bleach or acid treatment, and treat the fish where they are? I think I know what the reply will be but got to ask anyway.

 

[Spar]

you would not want to use copper in your DT. just risking issues down the road.

another option you may consider is Hyposalinity. With the catch that there are strains of Ich that are resistant to lower salinity. I used to do Hypo and appear to have gotten lucky. but, if you don't have the space to house the fish separate and do TTM, then Hypo is at least an easy attempt for you to try. you could do this in your current tank assuming you have no inverts or corals (just fish).

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

Thanks for the suggestion. How long would I need to run hypo? There are only a few snails and crabs in there at the moment and they could be easily removed.

 

[pktech]

How many fish do you have total & what type of fish are they?

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

My fish list is as follows:

1 Foxface Rabbitfish
2 Flame Hawkfish
3 Chromis
1 Blue Hippo Tang
1 Yellow Tang
1 Coral Beauty Angelfish
1 Flame Angelfish
1 Bluethroat Trigger
1 Heniochus Butterfly
1 Pakistan Butterfly
2 Clownfish
1 Royal Gramma
2 Blue Damsels

 

[Spar]

Thanks for the suggestion. How long would I need to run hypo? There are only a few snails and crabs in there at the moment and they could be easily removed.

There are some good stickies that fully explain the Hypo process, start there to make sure you understand the undertaking.

You would want to run hypo at 1.008 for a full month. The time it takes to slowly lower the salinity (over 3 days is sufficient) and to very slowly increase the salinity (over a week) is additional on top of that.

make sure to keep an eye on Alk/KH during the time, keeping it around 4dKH or so. No need to be higher as you would in a normal full salinity reef.

and most importantly is to use a calibrated (... by you ...) refractometer to monitor salinity. swing arms will mean doom. if you have it calibrated to 35ppt (normal solution), then when you measure lower salinity water it will actually read a little on the low side... so if you keep it at 1.008 (per the refractometer), you are likely to actually be at 1.0095 or so, below the 1.011 that is required.

use an auto-topoff system to keep your salinity stabilized.

it is a pretty easy process, as nothing really changes other than your salinity level. i have a friend who ran Hypo on his 400g with all his fish, all did well.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

Thanks for the advice. I'll do some research on hypo. I'm also considering removing the rocks and sand and treating with copper. My wife has made it clear there is no space available to set up a hospital tank large enough to treat 18 fish while leaving the display tank fallow for 72 days. I'm not worried about copper in the display since it will never be a reef tank, just fish only.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

The plan right now is to remove all the rocks and all the sand leaving just the fish and treat with Cupramine for 72 days. I will still have a protein skimmer and bio pellets. Am I going to regret removing the sand while there are still fish in the tank? Will I lose my biological filter? My sand bed is less than 1" at the deepest point but I'm sure it is probably disgusting under the rocks.

 

[Spar]

You will lose a significant amount of bacteria for sure. Get some bio-spira or equivalent 'bacteria in a bottle' to assist during the interim. Be ready to large water changes also, and monitor ammonia. Wait until things stabilize before starting to add cupramine. May be a week or two.

Remember that you can not add ammonia detox products while using cupramine. Will kill your fish if you do.

I think it is a bad idea to run bio pellets while running cupramine. I have no facts around this, but consider decommissioning them. Skimmer is likely fine but start a new post specific to whether that is ok to have skimmer + cupramine... just in case.

What ppm copper are you planning to run at for the 72 days. Make sure to never drop below .35ppm, even during a water change. You may want to also confirm that something around .4-.45 is ok for 72 days. Seems harsh on the fish.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

Thanks for the reply. When I ran Cupramine the first time I called Seachem tech support and specifically asked about running the skimmer. I was advised that it was OK to run the skimmer. When I ran their Paraguard, I was advised to run the skimmer each day for only a few hours and re-dose each day. I would re-dose at night and turn the skimmer off. I left it off all night and all day while I was at work and ran it only a few hours after work until it was time to re-dose. I think I will reach out to Seachem again and ask about the risks of treating for such a long period and what level the copper should be for a long period. I haven't ruled out hyposalinity. Do you think I could do hypo and leave the rocks and sand in the tank without any negative effects? I'm starting to wonder if this is ich. Nothing is happening in the tank. I see a few spots on just a few of the fish but they are looking better than when I started this thread a week ago.

 

[Spar]

Hypo will result in some die off of organisms causing an increase in ammonia, however not as great as the impact of taking out all rock and sand. And you have on your side at low salinity that fish handle ammonia better at hypo levels.

Copper will be more effective, but many more considerations you need to account for is the trade off.

Good to know about the skimmer. And please report back on what seachem says about 72 days.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

I called Tech support at Seachem this morning. I was advised to run Cupramine at 0.5 mg/l for 14 days and if I wanted to run longer than that, drop to 0.30-0.35 mg/l. I asked what the recommendation would be if I wanted to treat for 72 days and was advised to drop as low as 0.25 mg/l. Just passing this on without comment.

 

[Spar]

Under .35 won't do anything for ich though, so their advice seems a little odd.

The more I think about it, the more I think Hypo really is your best bet. Fish will love it and has the least negative side effect.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

I've come to the same conclusion. I'll keep you posted how it goes.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

I took the salinity down over 3 days to 1.010. Last night I made the last drop to 1.008. I'm using a calibrated refractometer. This morning I found my Coral Beauty Angel dead and my Flame Angel dying. Later today I lost my Yellow Tang. That was no surprise since it has not looked well for many months. I've got a few others that I haven't seen much of so I expect to find more losses in the morning. I did two water changes today taking the salinity to 1.011. I want to try and stop the bleeding until I come up with another plan. I'd appreciate some advise on what to do with the salinity.

 

[Spar]

Are ammonia levels ok?

You dropped salinity slow so shouldn't be the problem. They can take that level just fine. But as you mentioned, if the fish was already looking ill then the change may have put it over its limit.

Are you calibrating with 35ppt solution or RO/DI?

Sorry to hear of the issues.

 

[BGFOWLRGUY]

Cailbrating to 35 ppt. and test kit not measuring any ammonia The only one looking bad was the Yellow Tang. It never put on any weight the whole time I owned it. The two Angels were fine. I've not lost anymore fish but don't see a lot of some of them. If I can't see all of them tomorrow I'll start moving rocks until I find them all. I'm thinking I might know the cause of the problem. I use RO/DI water exclusively. While dropping the salinity I had not done the math and did not realize how much water it woud take to lower it in small increments. I used a fair amount of dechlorinated tap water since I could not make RO/DI fast enough. Today I did a 30 gallon water change with RO/DI and will do another one this weekend.