I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough. The natural method of biological filtration consists of live rock and live sand. The chemical filtration (nutrient export) can be accomplished by absorption, ion exchange, protein skimming, etc. So, instead of using a protein skimmer, I thought I could reduce the excess nutrients with frequent water changes and a canister filter filled with poly-filter, Purigen and activated carbon (absorption). Like I said, I want a closed system. Hope that makes sense.
New hobbyist. Please advise.
- Thread starter CFR777
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I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough. The natural method of biological filtration consists of live rock and live sand. The chemical filtration (nutrient export) can be accomplished by absorption, ion exchange, protein skimming, etc. So, instead of using a protein skimmer, I thought I could reduce the excess nutrients with frequent water changes and a canister filter filled with poly-filter, Purigen and activated carbon (absorption). Like I said, I want a closed system. Hope that makes sense.
Running a FOWLR with a canister filter can be accomplished, but is a lot more work then running a canister filter on a freshwater system. A saltwater tank is very much a miniature eco-system, so picking the right filter media from day one is very important. It is rare that someone successfully keeps a reef tank with a canister filter, and it will take a lot of diligence on your part if you really want to try it. The hardest part for me running canister filters is keeping parameters steady from week to week when I rinse the filter media in my canister. Oversizing your filter will help a little, but ultimately it is gonna be up to you to change and run the right media, and clean the filter out frequently. Also, look out for leaks, almost every canister filter I have dealt with leaked at some point and needs to be resealed.
Best practice is to rinse them then place them in the tank. Spend some time planning your aquascaping and getting the dry rock placed and glued where you want before you add the sand.
Pukani in particular really needs to be cured, not just rinsed. It will leach phosphates. Search pukani here and you'll see what I mean. Also, while rinsing is best practice for dry sand, you're going to kill a lot of the bacteria in live sand if you rinse it. Might want to do a search on that too to get it from a more reputable source.
Thank you for the input Rython. Does that apply for a new tank as well?
homer1475
New member
While that will work, it has no DI(deionization) stage which will clean up that last 2 to 4 TDI that the RO doesnt get. Easy enough to add on, but it may be cheaper to just buy a unit from a well respected dealer like spectrapure.
thelawnwrangler
New member
I am a year into getting RO/DI water from local fish store for a 36 total gallon system. I just use 5 gallon buckets from Lowes with lids, and pop them in the back of my truck. I have a board in there to keep them from sliding.
I am getting close to doing RO/DI- my sump pump seems to be acting funny though, and I need that to flush waste water so unsure if I pull trigger anytime soon.
75mixedreef
Member
I really don't like the canister filters. The thing you need to remember about filtering is that there are 2 sides to it and you really need to consider both to mitigate the risks, 3 if you care using products for their chemical reactions. There is mechanical filtration and biological filtration.
Biological filtration is great and is how the ammonia gets turned into nitrates, but it is also how nitrates become algae. If you do not remove the nitrates (and phosphates) from the water column then algae will for you. The downside of biological filtration is that it is not very adaptable in absorbing nutrient spikes, it can most of the work long term if you set it up right but one event could cause a chain reaction that could crash your entire tank. Losing anemones and sea cucumbers is a good example, snails follow the same principle but are small enough to not be too damaging. The main advantage is that this process is natural and is relatively cost free once it has the correct conditions. You might need a light or something but with LED costs you can buy a 36W bulb for $30 and run it for $1 or less a month. It also requires some of the least maintenance since you just let it do its thing then, if it is algae, you trim it back for nutrient removal.
Mechanical filtration is your filter socks, screens or floss and your skimmer. Those remove crap from your system before it decays into ammonia or excess nutrients. This means they are good at handling spikes that could otherwise damage your system. The downside is that they can not touch ammonia, NO3 or PO4. As good of a job as they might do, they can never remove those nutrients so they would continue to rise without some other sort of removal. These also require maintenance in order to clean out the filter or skimmer and remove the captured crud from the system.
The chemical removal would be your purigen, carbon, dechlor, ammonia lock, and other chemicals (or similar because I don't believe carbon or purigen is technically a chemical reaction but is similar enough for this example) lock up, or change their targeted chemicals to remove them from your system. This method is relatively simple because you just add it to the system to buy time, absorb for later removal, or have it get skimmed out with your skimmer along with whatever it is taking out. The downside with these is that they are all temporary measures and unless it is very cheap and easy to use like carbon then it is not recommended to use at all times. They also cost much more than other more sustainable processes and require you to initiate the process each and every time making it one of the most demanding in terms of maintenance.
Each category has a range of cost and maintenance required that overlaps by a large margin, so what method you use of each type has a large impact. For example growing chaeto is much easier and cheaper than growing mangroves. Purigen is also relatively easy and cheap, probably more so than grooving mangroves (not sure since I haven't done either) even though they are in categories that would indicate otherwise. So make sure you stay on the easier and more sustainable side of things to start out with where less can go wrong. Your purigen might be just fine for now, but eventually you are going to want to fill in your filtering/nutrient removal process, at least to the point where you have a good mechanical and biological process. Like a skimmer and chaeto. Water changes can sure replace all of this, but that is the most expensive and labor intensive of them all.
Biological filtration is great and is how the ammonia gets turned into nitrates, but it is also how nitrates become algae. If you do not remove the nitrates (and phosphates) from the water column then algae will for you. The downside of biological filtration is that it is not very adaptable in absorbing nutrient spikes, it can most of the work long term if you set it up right but one event could cause a chain reaction that could crash your entire tank. Losing anemones and sea cucumbers is a good example, snails follow the same principle but are small enough to not be too damaging. The main advantage is that this process is natural and is relatively cost free once it has the correct conditions. You might need a light or something but with LED costs you can buy a 36W bulb for $30 and run it for $1 or less a month. It also requires some of the least maintenance since you just let it do its thing then, if it is algae, you trim it back for nutrient removal.
Mechanical filtration is your filter socks, screens or floss and your skimmer. Those remove crap from your system before it decays into ammonia or excess nutrients. This means they are good at handling spikes that could otherwise damage your system. The downside is that they can not touch ammonia, NO3 or PO4. As good of a job as they might do, they can never remove those nutrients so they would continue to rise without some other sort of removal. These also require maintenance in order to clean out the filter or skimmer and remove the captured crud from the system.
The chemical removal would be your purigen, carbon, dechlor, ammonia lock, and other chemicals (or similar because I don't believe carbon or purigen is technically a chemical reaction but is similar enough for this example) lock up, or change their targeted chemicals to remove them from your system. This method is relatively simple because you just add it to the system to buy time, absorb for later removal, or have it get skimmed out with your skimmer along with whatever it is taking out. The downside with these is that they are all temporary measures and unless it is very cheap and easy to use like carbon then it is not recommended to use at all times. They also cost much more than other more sustainable processes and require you to initiate the process each and every time making it one of the most demanding in terms of maintenance.
Each category has a range of cost and maintenance required that overlaps by a large margin, so what method you use of each type has a large impact. For example growing chaeto is much easier and cheaper than growing mangroves. Purigen is also relatively easy and cheap, probably more so than grooving mangroves (not sure since I haven't done either) even though they are in categories that would indicate otherwise. So make sure you stay on the easier and more sustainable side of things to start out with where less can go wrong. Your purigen might be just fine for now, but eventually you are going to want to fill in your filtering/nutrient removal process, at least to the point where you have a good mechanical and biological process. Like a skimmer and chaeto. Water changes can sure replace all of this, but that is the most expensive and labor intensive of them all.
Hi 75mixedreef and thank you for your input. Allow me to play the devil's advocate though.
That's why I chose to use Purigen in a canister filter instead of buying a protein skimmer. It's easily regenerated, so I don't have to replace it every time it exhausts. I reckon that absorption (from Purigen), combined with weekly water changes is another way of removing the excessive organic waste and nutrients.
I'm not saying that this is the right way. But maybe it's an alternative way. Time will tell.
I agree that it may be labor intensive. Given that one has a closed aquarium system and a RO/DI, how can this be more expensive than a system with a sump/refugium, protein skimmers, additional lighting and pumps, etc? Please elaborate.
That's why I chose to use Purigen in a canister filter instead of buying a protein skimmer. It's easily regenerated, so I don't have to replace it every time it exhausts. I reckon that absorption (from Purigen), combined with weekly water changes is another way of removing the excessive organic waste and nutrients.
I'm not saying that this is the right way. But maybe it's an alternative way. Time will tell.
I agree that it may be labor intensive. Given that one has a closed aquarium system and a RO/DI, how can this be more expensive than a system with a sump/refugium, protein skimmers, additional lighting and pumps, etc? Please elaborate.
homer1475
New member
Lol the gallon per day on that unit is 19. If you read the question from the posting someone asks him what the LPD is. He states he makes about 25 litres in 7 to 8 hours or roughly 75 litres if run for 24 hours continuously.
In comparison my unit is a 75 gallons(284 litres) per day unit and I make 5 gallons(19 litres) in about an hour. It will take you days to just fill the tank. And an entire day just to make WC water.
Theres your catch!
That's not a deal braker for me, as I'm not going to need more than 5 gallons per water change. It may take a bit longer to fill the whole tank though! :facepalm:
What kind of canister filter do you have and what's the size of your tank?
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OldReefGuy
Well-known member
" I thought I could reduce the excess nutrients with frequent water changes and a canister filter filled with poly-filter, Purigen and activated carbon (absorption). Like I said, I want a closed system. Hope that makes sense."
You can keep a system like you describe above. Just make sure minimum 10% wc a week.
I kept my first tank with just a ug filter and 100lbs LR for over 3 years before wife forced it down.
You can keep a system like you describe above. Just make sure minimum 10% wc a week.
I kept my first tank with just a ug filter and 100lbs LR for over 3 years before wife forced it down.
I have a 55gal and run an Eheim Pro 3e. I also run a reef octopus skimmer.
Yes. That pukani will come with all kinds of dead stuff on it. You can rinse it and scrub it with a tooth brush, but it's very porous and will still have tons of decaying ocean organisms on/in it.
You can throw it in the tank and let it cure in there, but it can take weeks and will smell horrible (decay). And you'll have to do a lot of water changes to get all those nutrients out. That's why most people do it in a brut trash can outside ou on the garage. A powerheads and heater may speed it up.
You can also bathe the rock in mueratic acid, basically eating away the dead stuff, and the outer layer of the rock. I understand that speeds the process up considerably. You'll want to read up on that.
I'm not sure what you do about the phosphate leaching. You'll have to read up on that. I just know it's a downside to using pukani. But it's a popular rock, so people must have found a way to prepare it for use. Maybe the acid bath will do it.
The live sand is a similar deal. It's been sitting in a bag on a shelf. There is already a lot of die off. But since it's mostly microorganisms the die off isn't going to outweigh the filtration capacity of what's still alive. The dead will feed the living to some extent. But if you rinse it, you'll lose even more live bacteria. And you'll get rid of dead stuff too. But if you're going to do that, it begs the question, why not just buy dry sand and add bacteria in a bottle? Although if you aren't going to run a skimmer, it might still be the better choice, since you won't have a good way to pull that junk out of the water (other than lots of water changes).
Also, I wanted to make sure you know that you can run a protien skimmer without a sump. Many people have successful reefs with just rock, sand, a hang-on-back protien skimmer and water changes for filtration and nutrient removal. Protien skimmers are so effective that forgoing one is kind of "the hard way". But there are certainly many ways to do this, and I would never discourage anyone from trying it their own way. But this is an expensive hobby, so it's good to have a realistic idea of the challenges that lay ahead, so at least you're making informed choices.
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