New ich treatment idea

[nothingfishy]

After having used two consecutive cupramine treatments in fowlr display, monitoring levels to ensure it stayed at a .5 level. I once again have ich on my Achilles.

Needless to say, I have lost faith in copper, and do not want to waste more time, and battle amm and nitrite spikes. Perhaps the eggs are hatching after the 6 week period, thus not allowing enough copper contact time.

So understanding the thought behind tank transfer method, let ich drop off in one tank, switch tanks, disinfect first one, and refilling, etc. Why not move all fish to quarantine, nothing but pvc to hide in, and have copper in there right away. Slowly acclimate fish to quarantine copper, this way any ich that drops off fish, to lay eggs, is hit with copper. In theory, there would be no eggs in this tank, because its new, and the copper wouldn't allow it.

While they are in quarantine, completely nuke my tank. Drain tank down, remove and discard sand, remove rock, and bleach tank with 20 percent solution, for a day, drain, rinse, and let dry.

Now the tank is nuked, I can nuke the rock. Utilize bleach, rinse, and let it air dry for a week. Not that tank and rock, are bleached and dried, refill tank, place rock back in, with new sand, and recycle tank. The last tank I cycled here, my reef tank, took 3 weeks to cycle. So if that happens here, using bacteria, ghost feeding etc, I could have the tank back up and running in a month. By then, the fish would have all been in copper for a month,and should essentialy be "quarantined".

This of course is because the unknown of the fallow period. 10 week miniumum, would be a long time, for my big fish to be in a 4 foot tank. Plus, I have read stories of guys letting tank run fallow, for 10 weeks, and mysteriously ich return. Perhaps, they are more resilient than we know, and can last 6 months without a host.

Let me know what you think

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'll admit to not analyzing the entire post: You cannot precisely monitor copper in a DT, the LR & substrate absorb and release copper at an unknown rate. Copper treatments MUST be done in a proper HT/QT. The labeling of any copper med will tell you this. Don't "lose faith" in something until you've properly done it.

 

[lagatbezan]

I have had less then 50% survival rate when using cupramine and have since stopped using it. some fish handle it no problem while some just quickly perish. you can do the tank transfer method while you drain the main tank, bleach, let dry ect. much easier on the fish and no need to worry about copper levels changing or ammonia since you are doing a full water change every couple of days.

 

[GroktheCube]

Why not just let the DT fallow instead of nuking it?

 

[Deinonych]

Why not just let the DT fallow instead of nuking it?

+1

By the time you do a complete teardown, rebuild and cycle, it's close to 8 weeks IME. Letting the DT go fallow is a lot less work. I'm not sure I would bleach rock anyway; probably better to give it a muriatic acid bath followed by a rinse and recuring.

 

[nothingfishy]

Using bacteria and ammonia dosing I have cycled tanks in 3 weeks. So it's 4 weeks total, or 12 weeks

 

[Triggerfish]

After having used two consecutive cupramine treatments in fowlr display, Perhaps the eggs are hatching after the 6 week period, thus not allowing enough copper contact time.

While they are in quarantine, completely nuke my tank. Drain tank down, remove and discard sand, remove rock, and bleach tank with 20 percent solution, for a day, drain, rinse, and let dry.

This of course is because the unknown of the fallow period.

think i agree, probably going to be best plan to ensure eradication. like what was mentioned treating in DT is tough as rock/sand will absorb so difficult to ensure adequate level maintained all the time.
also copper will only effect the free-swimming stage all other stages would not be affected.

yes, fallow period is sort of unknown to be 100% sure. no sense going 3 months with no guarantee.
good luck man.

 

[Deinonych]

Using bacteria and ammonia dosing I have cycled tanks in 3 weeks. So it's 4 weeks total, or 12 weeks

That's just the cycling portion. You have to factor in tank teardown, cleaning and sterilization, plus time for aquascaping. Maybe you can do all that in a week, but IME it takes longer than that. Still seems like a lot of work for the same end result.

 

[mayhem3d]

I have had less then 50% survival rate when using cupramine and have since stopped using it. some fish handle it no problem while some just quickly perish. you can do the tank transfer method while you drain the main tank, bleach, let dry ect. much easier on the fish and no need to worry about copper levels changing or ammonia since you are doing a full water change every couple of days.

Increasing the copper concentration gradually is very important. it enables the fish to adjust.

I divide the cupramine dosage to 6 portions every 12 hours. never lost a fish to copper.

 

[Paul B]

I agree with MrTuskfish. Copper at the correct level will kill ich every time guaranteed.
I have done it for many years. Your level was not correct, IMO of course.

 

[snorvich]

i agree with mrtuskfish. Copper at the correct level will kill ich every time guaranteed.
I have done it for many years. Your level was not correct, imo of course.

+1

 

[nothingfishy]

Well that may be true. I can tell you it wasn't lack of effort. I tested daily with seachem kit, and from my eyes, it didn't drop.

But moving forward, all of my fish are in a 100 galloin Rubbermaid trough, same salinity and temp, freshwater dipped prior to introduction, and greet with mardel copper safe. Through a mag 5 on here, will have my skimmer on tub, feeding every other day.

As for the tank, completely drained, vacuumned, sand scooped out and tossed, rock left in, and filled with freshwater from hose. Let run over night just freshwater. Will be buying bleach today (any idea has to how much bleach in a 150 gallon tank, also how long to keep it in there, sufficient contact time witch ich, not long enough to ruin seals, silicone)

Bleach tank, drain, rinse once, drain and air dry using fans. Once bleach smell is gone, refill with r/o water, salt, and cycle. Hoping I can start cycling tank on Saturday, and 3 weeks from now, it should be good cycling wise

 

[nothingfishy]

Well that may be true. I can tell you it wasn't lack of effort. I tested daily with seachem kit, and from my eyes, it didn't drop.

But moving forward, all of my fish are in a 100 galloin Rubbermaid trough, same salinity and temp, freshwater dipped prior to introduction, and greet with mardel copper safe. Through a mag 5 on here, will have my skimmer on tub, feeding every other day.

As for the tank, completely drained, vacuumned, sand scooped out and tossed, rock left in, and filled with freshwater from hose. Let run over night just freshwater. Will be buying bleach today (any idea has to how much bleach in a 150 gallon tank, also how long to keep it in there, sufficient contact time witch ich, not long enough to ruin seals, silicone)

Bleach tank, drain, rinse once, drain and air dry using fans. Once bleach smell is gone, refill with r/o water, salt, and cycle. Hoping I can start cycling tank on Saturday, and 3 weeks from now, it should be good cycling wise

Of course this is all "tentative". In my experience, the tanks here take 3 weeks to cycle. However, if it is not cycle, thru amm. and nitrite checks, of course I will continue to cycle further.

Basically I am looking for how much bleach to put in 150 gallons water in tank? And how long to let it run in there, that will decimate ich, whatever else, but wont destroy rubber, silicon...?

Thanks guys

 

[lagatbezan]

Increasing the copper concentration gradually is very important. it enables the fish to adjust.

I divide the cupramine dosage to 6 portions every 12 hours. never lost a fish to copper.

yeah I learned that the hard way. I used to take 4 days to get to the recommended .5 level.
To be honest I think its a combination of few factors that contributed to the low survival rate (at least in my situation).
The copper itself irritates the fish to the point that they dont want to eat or they eat less, which probably weakens the fish to a degree. At the same time its in a small qt tank with no skimmer/live rock for a few weeks where the water conditions are not perfect all the time. water evaporation in the summer would also cause a swing in copper and salinity. I believe all these together puts much stress on a fish and me as well. Every morning or night I was not sure if the fish was going to make it to the next day since they were not eating well.
But with tank transfer, I feel like there is much less stress on the fish and me at the same time. fish goes to new water every couple of days and no need to worry about overdose/under dose of copper or ammonia spikes.
The fish would continue to eat and act normal which gives me a piece of mind as well and keeps my stress level down LOL.
This is just my own experience.

 

[Tuffloud1]

Regarding copper being absorbed by live rock - should the bio filtration pebble thingies that come with the Aquaclear filters be used if treating with copper?

I plan on running an Aquaclear 50 on my 20 gallon QT.

 

[Deinonych]

Basically I am looking for how much bleach to put in 150 gallons water in tank? And how long to let it run in there, that will decimate ich, whatever else, but wont destroy rubber, silicon...?

Thanks guys

0.5 cup of bleach per gallon is the recommended concentration on a Clorox bottle. However, if you drain the tank and allow it to be completely dry for 24 hours (48 if you want to absolutely sure), you will kill everything. Protozoans can't withstand desiccation. If you do use bleach, make sure the area is well ventilated. Chlorine off-gassing can be pretty intense and potentially harmful.

 

[Triggerfish]

not sure what test kit you use to test copper.
believe coppersafe is chelated and cupramine is fully charged ionic. think API for coppersafe and seachem or salifert for cupramine.
the latter is known to be safer as it's effective at lower concentrations.

 

[nothingfishy]

Well ladies and gentlemen, I suppose now is the time to say..you were right, I should have listened, etc.

I have lost 8 of 15 fish in the last 3 days, totaling 1500 in losses. I had them in 100 gallon Rubbermaid trough, feed lightly 1 time, did a water change, and woke up to find 8 fish dead, with a 2.0 ammonia level.

The remaining 7 fish, which look like death themselves, are back in the tank, with new water and biospira. I fully anticipate them to be dead in the next 24 hours.

Thank you for all your help, but this experience reminding me of why I left the hobby ten years ago. Hopefully these fish make it, I can rehome them, and I can put this to rest.

Thanks again for your help and advice.

 

[alprazo]

Why not try chloroquine

 

[MrTuskfish]

Why not try chloroquine

Unless you are used to copper, I think chloroquine would be the 1st option. I've used copper for many years, know its little quirks; but I'm about ready to switch to CP----as have many folks on this forum who finally listened to Alprazo.