New O. Scyllarus tank

[Islandoftiki]

Cross your fingers, my Innovative Marine Nuvo 30 should be coming in tomorrow and I plan on picking it up after work.

This is going to be the new home for my O. Scyllarus. At this point, I'm going to be a week or two off from having it wet. I need to figure out if I can keep this tank in the same spot her 20 gallon tank is now, build a custom stand, build a new PVC den and all of that other important stuff.

I still need to work out a few of the details of the filtration system but ultimately, it's going to be at the very least running a skimmer, activated carbon, phosphate media, purigen, filter floss and poly-bio-marine filter pad. It's going to be pretty decked out with chemical filtration.

In addition, I'm hoping to run a good sized chaeto fuge in the second filter compartment.

I'm planning to line the bottom of the tank with acrylic just in case, but I doubt that will be necessary with Betty. I may skip this. I'm planning to do a 1/2" to 1" sand bed of fairly fine to medium fine grain so it won't hold much detritus.

Here are a couple of concerns...

Lighting. We're talking about an O. Scyllarus tank. She's about 5" (and obviously female). Assuming water quality can be kept at above average standards like the rest of my tanks enjoy, would I be safe to put a lower wattage T5 HO setup on it and have some low light corals? We're talking probably 48 watts max, and I could keep it more in the actinic spectrum.

My second thought here would be NPS corals and viewing light that would come on in the evenings for a couple hours.

I really want to have some interest in the tank beyond a pile of rocks. My fiance wants me to put plastic plants in the tank. I'd rather have a boring pile of rocks. Plus, most plastic plants are freshwater plants and will bother me to no end seeing them in a saltwater tank no matter how nice they look. I've seen some acceptable fake coral ornaments, but they're very expensive. I could also experiment with drilling the rocks and stacking them more vertically using acrylic rods to keep them from falling over.

Those are my main concerns right now. Ultimately, Betty's health comes first. I'd like some opinions from our more advanced members. Kharn, Gary, Dr. Caldwell, etc... (You all know who you are, I don't need to name everyone.)

Thank you all for your time and opinions...

 

[Calappidae]

We have talked aboit lighting alot in the past. Water quality and skimming does decrease the risk... but overall I'd stay away.. Its basicly a hit or miss as I've seen O. scyllarus with SR in reef setups with heavy skimming but I'm not garunteeing it will get SR either..

NPS.. I don't know too much about NPS so.. I'm going to take a stab here and say depends on the type your getting as NPS I'd would think to have stinging cells similar to that as an anemone inorder to catch food.. If you'd keep an anemone with the mantis.. then I'd say yes.... tube anemones I am pretty confident on saying no to since they are more potent like a condylactus than most of the other anemones..

 

[Islandoftiki]

I was thinking more like gorgonians for NPS corals. Maybe some sun corals, too.

I know we've been through the lighting thing over and over, and opinions seem to vary widely with water quality being well above lighting in terms of shell rot.

 

[Calappidae]

O. scyllarus live in reefs where soft corals can be found. Its a hit or miss.

I think there is a higher risk of stomatopods getting shell rot in a reef tank full of softies, than a reef tank dominated in SPS mainly do to how up-to-scratch the water has to be to grow them.

If I'm correct.. gorgonians is a host to G. ternatensis.. a stomatopod. So I don't see an issue there.

My theory with shell rot is that, like ich, it attack host with weak immune systems (such as older stomatopods or ones housed in poor water quality) and requires to photosynthesize in it's life cycle (hench the lighting). Although its just a theory that I made up..

 

[Islandoftiki]

If I'm correct.. gorgonians is a host to G. ternatensis.. a stomatopod. So I don't see an issue there..

G. Ternatensis, are mainly found in Pocillapora. My old man G. Ternatensis is doing quite well in a tank of mushroom coral and macro algae. Nitrates are maintained around 2-3ppm and phosphates are undetectable with my kit (which isn't a low range kit).

 

[Fartin'Gary]

This is my third peacock and I have always used lighting of some sort. With this current tank I have this light http://www.aquatraders.com/LED-Aquarium-Lighting-featuring-1W-LED-p/56214.htm and some soft corals. Stuff like capnella, GSP, pink and green polyps, xenia, mini carpet nen, mushrooms, ect. Anything with low to moderate lighting. I keep the lights on for 4-6 hours most of the time. Not everyday. There is enough ambient light in the room most of the time to where the light isn't needed. It's also got a moon light feature that is a bit underpowered but the price of the light was great. I have never had any shell rot with any of my mantis. I keep up with water quality and feed accordingly. This one was a bit more challenging since I have two clowns, one dottyback, and a terrible evil 3 spot damsel. Just have to watch the amount of food that goes in at once and keep an eye on the skimmer. There is also micro algae, carbon, biopellets, filter floss, good flow, and about 45-50lbs of live rock.

 

[Islandoftiki]

This is going to be down to just the mantis only. No fish, so maintaining water quality should be exceedingly simple.

The damsel that currently lives in there has recently become extremely reclusive. I'm thinking Betty might be hassling the fish or have taken a whack at it. It used to be out and about all the time and now it's maybe out at feeding time, but otherwise hidden in the rocks the rest of the time. I'm going to re-home it.

 

[TundraGuy]

Can I suggest you order so Marco rock "rubble" I was very impressed with what I got. The mantis moves these around stacking then demolishing then pushing it around. If you go to my thread started by Kharm you can see the rubble mixed in with the deep sand bed. I also drilled and pegged my rock structure up in the water to create a lower and upper deck for the mantis to climb on. I think this all covers what your headed towards.

 

[Calappidae]

One thing I always try to do in mantis setups is use only live rock and live sand.. this way I can have some sort of CUC like micro brittles or worms with mine.

I also breed asterina stars in his tank... keeps the algae low.. and feeds my harlequin shrimp :hammer:

 

[Islandoftiki]

One thing I always try to do in mantis setups is use only live rock and live sand.. this way I can have some sort of CUC like micro brittles or worms with mine.

I also breed asterina stars in his tank... keeps the algae low.. and feeds my harlequin shrimp :hammer:

I'm using new live sand and the existing rock from her current tank so I won't have any cycle to deal with. I may try to find some more interestingly shaped live rock pieces and cycle them in a bucket later on.

 

[Calappidae]

I'm using new live sand and the existing rock from her current tank so I won't have any cycle to deal with. I may try to find some more interestingly shaped live rock pieces and cycle them in a bucket later on.

Your still going to have to cycle.. I've tried that before it doesn't work like that.. live rock is taken right out of the ocean, where bacteria is plentiful, and we put it in our tanks and still have to cycle...

If you used the same sand, same filter, same rock, and same water, then I can see that working out as an "instant" cycle but there may be an occasonal ammonia spike later on as well.. When you move the rock and sand your going to get an ammonia spike..

 

[Islandoftiki]

No. I'm using new fresh bagged live sand.

I'm using the existing live rock from her 20 gallon tank that is fully cycled. Moving it to another tank won't cause a cycle or cause the bacteria to die off. The bacteria are already populated on that rock and there will be no die off, thus, the tank will be immediately cycled because the rock is already to go.

Remember, there is little to no bacteria in the water column. It's all on the rock.

 

[Calappidae]

You need biological filteration.. its not all on the rock itself.. if you placed powerheads all around the tank so water passes through the rocks.. then yes it would be cycled.. but the bio media/biowheel/refugium/wet dry filter is what actually cycles the tank because the water will run through the nitrifying bacteria in the media rather than just sit on the rocks doing nothing. If you used the same filter as before, then bacteria will already be in the media keeping everything in check.

The new live sand will also put a heavy bioload on the tank as well, the way it is packaged, not a whole lot is still alive in it.. infact some brands will say "good for 12 months" or some sort of expiration date on the live sand. who knows how long it has been on the shelf or at a warehouse meanwhile. The die-off in the sand would be like uncured rock. The bacteria would need to adjust to it as well starting another mini cycle.

Multiply times I tried to setup a tank using the same filter, same rock, and a little bit of the same sand and it still had some ammonia spikes to some degree. Infact when I moved my O scyllarus, it was an emergency and I did just that.. amquel ammonia detox and a skimmer is whats keeping him alive.

btw, I'm only repeating what I hear in the "New to hobby" forums.

 

[Islandoftiki]

Ok, I'm not going to debate this with you any more. There will not be a cycle with this method. People do this exact thing all the time when upgrading tanks. It's been done time and time again.

It sounds like people are dispensing a mixture of questionable and good advice in the "New to hobby" forums.

Anyhow, I'll be starting a build thread of the new tank and you can follow along to see what happens (I.E. No cycle).

Remember, the bioload that these rocks are currently processing will be going down when they're moved to the new tank. They're currently handling a the bioload from the mantis and the large damsel. The damsel isn't moving to the new tank. So, there's even some reserve biological bacteria on the rocks.

And I'll tell you what. Just for you, I'll put the sand in a bucket with a heater and a powerhead while I'm building the stand and preparing for the transfer so, in the odd event that there's anything in it to die off, it'll do it in the bucket and not in the tank. Even though that shouldn't be an issue with the sand I'm going to be using.

Anyhow, having a cycle in this tank wasn't even a concern...

 

[Calappidae]

I'm following with this to see what happens.

IMO I think it would be better if you bought dry sand and took a cup or two of live from the other tank. This way there is no curing or die-off to really worry about as much.

 

[Islandoftiki]

Never heard of curing or die-off with the bagged live sand. In fact, it helps to speed up a normal tank cycle if you're doing a tank from scratch.

 

[Calappidae]

Never heard of curing or die-off with the bagged live sand. In fact, it helps to speed up a normal tank cycle if you're doing a tank from scratch.

Bagged live sand is the same thing as bagging live fish or inverts.. they only have so long in the bag to live before they run out of air and die-off... live rock atleast is put in holding tanks when sold.

There was actually a few arguements (including me..) on the subject of live sand in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2338406&page=4

Its good, if it didn't expire yet.. and who knows when that is.. it could have been in a warehouse or on the shelf for a year already.

 

[Islandoftiki]

Well, it's just like other products that have biological cultures in them, like Microbacter7 and others that are shelf stable. They have expiration dates. It's usually a year or so for live sand. I wouldn't buy it if doesn't have a decent expiration date.

Again, we're totally derailed from my original questions. I started a separate thread about this issue over on Nano-Reef. Feel free to join in there and continue that line of thought. http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/335573-tank-upgrade-new-sand-old-rock/#entry4520888

 

[Calappidae]

I'd like to settle the argument with this guy by pointing him to this thread. Does anyone see any reason this won't work just fine?

Read the Nano reef thread and I'd just like to mention there never was an argument, only mixed options. We're all just trying to help here on RC.

 

[TundraGuy]

Lol chew chew derailed topic train coming through.

A few things I have noted through the years: doing this will cuse a small cycle. This cycle not unlike a hurracane ripping through a reef brings with it all new water removes a lot of waste and inspires new growth. Most corals respond very well to this kind of displacement into a new larger valume of water. The only time moving a sand bed is a disaster is when it is a deep sand bed loaded with life and a oxygen free zone. Moving this kind of bed will kill lots and lots of critters in the deep sand bed and open up a few pockets of unwanted stuff. But even this can be taken care of with a good rinse. The bacteria that do the work will repopulate the new tank in a hurry. When I do this kind of move I make sure to follow it with water test and keep water on hand for a quick WC as needed (I have really only need to do WC s on a couple moves). Anyone that has done a major tank upgrade will tell you the animals respond very well but limit the in coming food for a few days and you should be good to go.

Bacteria in a bottle have always shown short term results for me. Mostly I think to the types of bacteria being used are fast breeding use up the food source die off and are replaced with the correct types of long term slower growing strains. Knowing that in a glass box we grow a huge verity of bacterium that constantly move and change in quantity and type no one bottle will be a perfect mix of bacteria for our system. When adding a fish to a tank you change the level of available food/waste for the bacteria to grow off therefore causing a mini cycle. Hopping that a bottle or bag of sand would hold in stasis the correct types of bacterium just seems far fetched. But then again seeds found in the pyramids have been found to still be viable so maybe I am wrong about wet bags of sand. All I know is huge water changes are a good thing as long as they are from a clean sorce with the correct peramiters.

Long story short I am in favor of this move. The new tank will not be as stable as the persisting tank but will get there faster then a new tank with new live rock and new "live sand". I have found keeping the lights off during the first few weeks will avoid any possible un wanted algae out breaks and possibly clear up so preexsiting algae problems.

I am looking forward to pix of the new set up.