New tank, sump location question

[jcw]

LOL. I showed my wife the pink stuff and she swears she saw it on the rock when I first put it in.

Anyway, I hate to start a new thread with this question because I'm sure it's been answered before....

Looking to start stocking the tank in a couple months (patience, patience). I want to go light on the corals and have plenty of swimming room for fish. (details- 6ft long 120g DT, 30g fuge, 30g sump live chaeto and LR, 2 eheim return pumps, 2 tunze 6045s)

I've read in a link that is frequently posted on this site about myths debunked that suggested after cycling for 3 months to add corals first. But I'm not sure what kinds.

First question- what is a good hardy (pioneer, I think he called it) coral to first put in the tank?

After these are established I was thinking of adding the following fish.

Mystery or a fairy wrasse. During my first go around in this hobby more than 15 years ago, a wrasse was one of the most hardiest and entertaining fish I had.

Multicolored angel. Could this tank support more than one dwarf angel?

Like everyone else it seems, I'd love to have a small group of fish that would swim together. Seems the damsels basically pick off one another until only one survives. Any suggestions? maybe a group of anthias? or firefish?

After the tank is well established, I'd like to try getting a mandarin fish.

And maybe one bigger sized fish, any suggestions.

 

[jcw]

Copepods in the fuge crawling all over the front glass.
Hair algae starting in the fuge with a slight diatom bloom. Chaeto about twice the size not all of it is super healthy, has some brown in it and some of it is bleached.

Did a water change. I plumbed the sump with a drain to a basement sump. Marked off the sump in gallons. Allowed the sump to fill to 5 gallons then attached a segment of pvc tube/vinyl tubing from the t off the pump to the drain to the basement sump(see the skimmer pic in the post above). Turned on the pump.

When 5 gallons were pumped out, I replaced the water with 5 gallons of RO water. Turned on the pump with the recirc valve wide open and the valve back to the DT close. This mixed the salt and water in the sump until I was happy. Then opened the valves back to the tank.

I could do 10+ gallon changes this way. I just have to plumb a holding tank for the RO water.

No lugging buckets of water or splashing water in the cabinet or floor.

 

[jcw]

Diatom bloom is getting a little serious in the refugium. Nothing in the DT thankfully.
Checked my nitrates and they are between 40-60. Couldn't figure what was going on so I did a 10% change and cleaned out the skimmer.

Then I remembered that I never removed the sponges from the Eheim pumps. I removed them and cleaned them and threw them in the QT.

 

[jcw]

nitrates down to 20 or less. zero for the other parameters(ammonia and nitrites). pH has always been pretty good. I think I'm getting the hang of managing the empty tank. :spin1:

Hard to believe a couple 4 inch sponges could increase the nitrates in a 160g system that significantly. (I've been throwing in a very small bit of frozen shrimp every 2-3 days that the snails and even the crabs go after).

I left the lights to the refugium off for a couple days and the diatoms are noticeably less. Hopefully the algaes are being eaten by the copepods.

I'm gonna get a torch lighter and take care of those aiptasia and probably the mushroom this week.

(Since I'm not asking many questions and pretty much just blogging my progress, I'll probably cool it for a while until I get some coral or fish. See ya around. Thanks. )

 

[iwishtofish]

Got an ominous warning from Beananimal that my setup is doomed to failure.

Let me guess...the siphon overflows?

Without a doubt, I would have gotten a reef ready setup. Or an acrylic tank that I feel more comfortable drilling myself.

Your setup will work fine - you'll just find yourself thinking about those overflows a bit more often (mostly when you are away ). You'll want to tweak things to minimize the formation of bubbles at the apex of the tubes. Small bubbles that get trapped there can snag more small bubbles, thus creating a bigger and bigger bubble...and so on. Contributors are too-low-flow and growth of algae that snags microbubbles.

The pumps are now plugged into non-GCFI sockets just in case a power fluctuation cuts off the GCFI again.

Maybe you can find a way to remedy this? I'd feel safer - with any electrical device underwater - having everything go through a GFCI.

Plumbed the sump overflow drain to the basement sump that pumps water outside. I did this after a minor floor washing after the GCFI tripped when the power flickered on/off briefly. The GCFI didn't reset and so the pumps didn't come back on and the reverse siphon overflowed the sump very slightly.

This is a situaton, I'm afraid, that may be bound to give you a number of headaches (and worry) in the future. What will be the situation if this happens when you aren't around? If you ever set up an auto-topoff system in the return (evaporative) section of your sump, a loss of water volume like you described is bound to trip it. The lost salt water will then be replaced with fresh water, and cause salinity issues.

Are you able to consider manufacturing a sump with more free space, provided you can't lower the water level in the return section to accommodate the backflow?

The ATB after 72hrs of running (48hrs of running with an open drain from the collection cup and 24hrs of skimming on 4 inch stilts) now works great at the recommended 8.5-9" level. I'm very happy.

Great!

That's interesting...

ammonia trace
nitrite zero
nitrate 20ppm
ph 8.2

On a two week old 120g tank, after bump starting the cycle with a frozen shrimp, about 35 pounds live rock from a CMAS established tank. (Thanks!)

Chaeto in the refug is starting to grow barely perceptibly on a daily basis. It is under a Phillips plant light and a CFL about 6000K, I think, on about 12 hours a day.

Any trace of ammonia (I realize things have changed since you posted this) either means your cycle is not complete (in which case you shouldn't have any livestock), or any established bacteria is being overwhelmed at its current capacity to process waste. I'd stop feeding the tank and monitor levels until only nitrate remains. Then watch for nitrate to drop to negligible levels and hopefully your cycle is complete.

I don't have lights on in the tank. Not enough money for a proper light setup.

Haha, join the club!! :sad2:

That aiptasia is gonna be a problem. I should address it before it gets out of control.

Agreed!

LOL. I showed my wife the pink stuff and she swears she saw it on the rock when I first put it in.

Wives are always more observant than their husbands!

I've read in a link that is frequently posted on this site about myths debunked that suggested after cycling for 3 months to add corals first.

Add corals when your water quality has stabilized and is pristine. Corals like stability, good flow, and adequate light. Add your livestock very gradually, as planned, so that your biological filtration has time to adjust to each new addition. If you add 3 big poopin' tangs at once, that could cause some problems...

First question- what is a good hardy (pioneer, I think he called it) coral to first put in the tank?

Well, first make sure you research and have adequate flow and lighting for any coral you are considering introducing. Generally, soft corals and some LPS are a bit more tolerant of less-than-perfect conditions than SPS corals. I'd go to the LiveAquaria website, look at their corals, and see how they rate the level of difficulty for each one.

Could this tank support more than one dwarf angel?

Don't know much about the wrasses. Research angels carefully, as many people have problems with them bothering their corals. I know I did.

After the tank is well established, I'd like to try getting a mandarin fish.

Yes, well-established, excellent (sustainable) pod population, and no aggressive critters to bother it or compete for its food. Even then, success is iffy.

Copepods in the fuge crawling all over the front glass.

Great!

Hair algae starting in the fuge with a slight diatom bloom. Chaeto about twice the size not all of it is super healthy, has some brown in it and some of it is bleached.

How are your levels? Being careful not to overfeed the cleanup crew?

Did a water change. I plumbed the sump with a drain to a basement sump. Marked off the sump in gallons. Allowed the sump to fill to 5 gallons then attached a segment of pvc tube/vinyl tubing from the t off the pump to the drain to the basement sump(see the skimmer pic in the post above). Turned on the pump.

When 5 gallons were pumped out, I replaced the water with 5 gallons of RO water. Turned on the pump with the recirc valve wide open and the valve back to the DT close. This mixed the salt and water in the sump until I was happy. Then opened the valves back to the tank.

I could do 10+ gallon changes this way. I just have to plumb a holding tank for the RO water.

No lugging buckets of water or splashing water in the cabinet or floor.

I would mix your salt water in a separate tub for at least 24-hours (with heater and powerhead). This will allow it to properly "mature," and for things like pH to adjust. I've read this just about everywhere, and you'll have to research if you want more specifics as to why...

nitrates down to 20 or less. zero for the other parameters(ammonia and nitrites). pH has always been pretty good. I think I'm getting the hang of managing the empty tank. :spin1:

Hard to believe a couple 4 inch sponges could increase the nitrates in a 160g system that significantly. (I've been throwing in a very small bit of frozen shrimp every 2-3 days that the snails and even the crabs go after).

Good about the nitrates! About feeding the crabs...a little bit goes a LONG way, maybe too long. If you have algae growth in the tank, I'd consider letting them survive off of that until you begin feeding fish (which I suspect won't be long!).


(Since I'm not asking many questions and pretty much just blogging my progress, I'll probably cool it for a while until I get some coral or fish. See ya around. Thanks. )

Keep us posted! You have a nice-sized setup with tremendous potential. Like all of us, you have a few kinks to work out, but that's what keeps us from getting bored! Again, very nice!

 

[jcw]

Wow, thanks for taking the time to help me with the above!

Update (1 month into cycle- yes, I am realizing that maybe there is more to a cycle than just the initial denitrifying stuff, maybe the algae coming and going should be thought of as part of a bigger cycle):
ammonia- 0
nitrite- 0
nitrate- between 40-80 on a cheapy API kit (that seems to be all the local fish stores carry)

The HA still is only in the refugium but in places it's 2 inches long. No lights still in the DT so no algae although there are dozens of tiny copepod sized growths on the glass with 5-6 fine hairs. I'll post a pic later.

I thought they were animals but they don't grow or move. I think they might be a form of algae which can't grow because of the lack of light. I have a couple of those tiny starfish and dozens of the smallish snails as well as some of those vermetid snails on the live rock. It's not those. If they are aiptasia, I'm quitting right now.

I'm at a loss as to where the nitrates are coming from. At this point I'm blaming the old rock, but for some reason I'm not convinced of it. I've read both ways that leaching from old rock can and can't happen at normal ph. I've removed the pump sponges, clean the skimmer weekly if not more, and only started out with maybe 15 pounds of live rock from an established aquarium in town.

I removed the live rock with the two large aiptasia and moved them into the QT. Only one small one maybe 1/8" remains on the glass.

The chaeto continues grow fine. I started dosing with Kents iron that contains mang as well. The chaeto turned from brownish to the nice dark green in a couple weeks. That was nice. But there looks to be a little bit of dinoflagettes on a part of the chaeto that I think came with it from the LFS. Red snot with bubbles right?

I learned that the frozen shrimp I was occasionally throwing in the tank for the snails might contain phosphates and could have contributed to the HA issue. Although I never tested for it. I stopped so the snails will have to fend for themselves. I pretty much moved all the CUC (5 crabs, 4 astrea snail, one bigger snail that doesn't eat algae and burrows) to the refugium as the DT is as barren as the refugium is overrun.

So, because I was bored :spin2: I decided to dose vodka in my empty tank :lmao: to lower the nitrates and possible phosphates (no test kit for this). And damn it if it didn't work. In only one week of dosing 0.4ml of 80 proof in about 160 gallon system, the nitrates are below 20ppm. And the tank is noticeably clearer. Skimmate thicker darker green. And I swear it (the water) smells less.

I'm not aggressively pursuing low nitrates because one of the side effects of all that HA in the refugium is the pod population in the fuge is INSANE. A few amphipods, hundreds of copepods, dozens of in-between-sized pods, 5 bristleworms in the chaeto ball. I have fun lying on the floor and watching the busy little world of the PODS. Who needs fish.

Speaking of fish, I somehow withstood the temptation of getting a "healthy appearing" pretty little multicolored angel from the LFS for only ~$45 about 2 weeks ago. This waiting is not easy.

I have to say that this hobby is COMPLETELY different and much easier with the availability of the internet than when I first did this 15+ years ago.

 

[jcw]

please don't laugh...
refug with a lot of HA and some red dino(?). Chaeto's been harvested once. Tonight I counted 5 bristleworms in there.

In contrast the DT looks barren (I have yet to clean the glass)

Vodka dosing for only one week and the water is crystal clear

these star things are up in the DT with a pic of an in-between pod(?)...

here's another aiptasia :mad2:

 

[jcw]

A huge thank you to Glassboxdesigns for the live rock. It is absolutely gorgeous in color covered in coralline algae. Even the CUC was covered in it. In addition to these pieces, the live rock I got from another chicago reefer, I consider myself incredibly lucky.

Unfortunately(for me), the new rock came with some nice acro coral and a medium sized monti. I have NO clue how to care for these and from what I understand they are SPS and harder to care for than the soft corals.

I ran out and purchased an LED light array from a LFS, an Ecoray 60, for the center of the tank and am constructing some wall mounts for pendant lights and 100w CFL's. Currently the corals are under the LEDS with some eggcrate and screen to acclimate them to the light. The acro have lost their tips just slightly in the transport, but hopefully will recover.

I'll be reading on care of these corals and probably breaking out the checkbook again. First thing I'll need is a good testing kit.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Pics to come...

 

[jcw]

This is the majority of the new LR.

 

[jcw]

Looking in the tank tonight, I found a crab about 2 inches across with hairy brown and black legs. Great.

I ran up to grab a camera but when I came back it was gone. I think he's hiding in a big rock at the base of the pile.

I've read several threads about these suckers biting coral and even fish.

I can't find him anymore, but I think I'll pull the live rock a couple pieces at a time and look for him in a QT tank.

I don't think I have any other choice.

I wonder if a wrasse would take care of him?

Edit- found him out having a late night snack, set the drinking glass trap, i hope it works...

adding live rock is like sex without a condom. seemed like a good idea but do it enough times and you're bound to catch something you don't want.

 

[jcw]

Success!!

Not with the trap. The snails were out the entire night trying to figure where the food was but the crab didn't bite.

But coming home from work, I spotted him just under a frag.

I tried to fork him out but he's faster than I thought.

So I grab the rock he wedged himself in. Turned it upside down on a towel and broke apart the small crevice he was in with a screwdriver. The nudged him out. He just walked off the rock and onto the towel.

Banished to the sump under the skimmer. Maybe he'll take care of some of the detritus under there.

Honestly, I was going to crush him in the rock and leave him for the worms and snails, but I couldn't do it.

He had a stay of execution.

 

[sbabs]

Tank is coming along nicely. Love your stand. Wish I had your talent with a saw.


these star things are up in the DT with a pic of an in-between pod(?)...

I think those are flatworms no?
Your new rock looks really awesome. Nice score there.

I too found a crab in my tank recently. Cute furry little fellow whom I found hiding in a large acropora colony. I'm just sure I'm going to bust him munching on some coral soon, and when I do, he gets the axe, but I too, like you, can't see myself killing him.

I don't have issues killing aptasia though. Nothing I like better than watching my sweet peppermint shrimp diligently ripping away at aptasia. They are cool little critters.

 

[jcw]

Tank is coming along nicely. Love your stand. Wish I had your talent with a saw.

I think those are flatworms no?
Your new rock looks really awesome. Nice score there.

I too found a crab in my tank recently. Cute furry little fellow whom I found hiding in a large acropora colony. I'm just sure I'm going to bust him munching on some coral soon, and when I do, he gets the axe, but I too, like you, can't see myself killing him.

I don't have issues killing aptasia though. Nothing I like better than watching my sweet peppermint shrimp diligently ripping away at aptasia. They are cool little critters.

Thanks!

Yup, looks like they are flatworms possibly planaria. The refugium was teeming with them at one point. Now they are coming down in number without treatment but a few are making their way to the DT.

Mainly I couldn't kill the crab because it hadn't done anything that I know of bad in the DT.

I wiped the aptasia off the tank wall and it hasn't come back. There are now two in the fuge that I have to get to.

The two on the live rock I took my oxyactelyene torch to and melted off the rock. The first one literally melted away. With that torch you can get into any crevice. I think I didn't hold it as long on the second one or got in the wrong crevice because unbelievably it's regrowing.

 

[jcw]

A few updates...

After the death of my pygmy angel in QT, I had a moment of irrational thought and bought some fish from DD. A trio of sunshine chromis and a small flasher wrasse. They are all small fish 1-1.5" long.

They all went into the 30 gallon tank. I was semi prepared for the aggression of the chromis although the website said they are "peaceful." And I set up a HOB filter rated for 70 gallon tank and a powerhead. I figured more flow in the little tank might take some of the aggression away. I also fed them generously.

The larger chromis continued to badger the smaller two. Particularly the smallest one. So much that I decided to take the smallest of the three (and the most colorful with an incredible yellow and purple color) out of QT in into the main tank. Everyone is doing great thus far. So much for QT.


The tank itself is doing well, with a new type of critter running around the DT and fuge. I was afraid they might be the red bugs but so far they are not on any of the corals. They look like baby amphipods.

There has been a small boom in the amphipod population particularly in the fuge with some of the pods getting almost 1/2 long! The shells float around the DT as they shed(molt?). The planaria are still there as are the copepods but are less in number.

Hair algae is all but gone from the fuge. which leads to...

After talking with Eric from glassboxdesigns when I picked up his incredible live rock, I began dosing vinegar in the AM and vodka in the PM. After a couple weeks of this, I checked nitrates and they were undetectable on a API kit. I have since stopped the vinegar and only dose 1cc of vodka to the tank. I anticipate this will increase as I get new fish and feed more.


As for the lighting, my recent unplanned SPS acquistions (on the live rock) required I do something NOW. So, I purchased a 60W LED array for $300 at a local fish store. It only lights the middle of the tank. For the rest of the tank, I'm using a really embarassing combination of jury-rigged floor lamps and 150W equivalent CFL bulbs and an old 5 bulb T5 lamp fixture. The result looks pretty good but is probably insufficient for coral growth.

I've also started dosing kalkwasser. Mixing it up and dripping it in the sump with some IV tubing. I checked the Calcium level after 2 days of dripping and with a Salifert test kit and it was 380.

I picked up some sps acro coral, lps torch coral?, some kind of pink and white monti from the live rock and then again from a local reefer, Mai (thanks!). The main acro is doing great under the LEDs and in an area of good flow growing perceptibly every two to three days. The pink and white monti not so good. Anyone suggestions would be appreciated.


Of course, pics to follow.

 

[Bigjoe2531]

Following along.....

 

[jcw]

You're probably in for a rocky ride. I'm learning this on the fly.


Here's the fuge now. Hair algae is nearly all gone, half of the chaeto was harvested twice but instead of throwing it out, I made an eggcrate basket and put it in the sump just past the bubble trap to help stop microbubbles in the return section.

Amphipod. I couldn't get a pic of one of the largest ones. This one was probably 1/3".

Anyone ID this pink rimmed polyp? It's on a piece of live rock in the DT. About 1/4" in size. Gets nice and puffy when the lights hit it. I hope it decides to multiply because I think it's cute.

I'll snap some pics of the fish tommorrow. They were all hiding when I got home.

Decided after reading SK8R's stuff that I need to be checking and raising my magnesium if I'm dripping kalkwasser. Apparently, the calcium will never get high enough if magnesium isn't supplemented. I only recently bought some reef crystal salt instead of IO so I'm probably a little (maybe a lot) mag deficient. I'll be picking up a mag test kit tommorrow. In the meantime, I got some Kent's Magnesium. According to the instructions, I'm suppose to add 1ml per gallon per day to bring up the mag to 1300. At that rate a $14 bottle will last 3 days.

 

[jcw]

BTW, I tested the water that the fish came in overnight from Wisconsin. SG was 1.030. pH was 7.6 or less.

It's amazing what they can survive.

 

[jcw]

Fishies...

this is the baby chromis

The flash makes the colors look harsh. Without the flash, I couldn't get a clear pic but the colors are better.

Small wrasse

Cool pgymy angel

I'm fortunate getting such healthy fish from DD. They are head and shoulders healthier and better eaters than the LFS fish I tried first.

 

[Bigjoe2531]

Nice pygmy.....really cool coraline algal growth...you should think about getting a calcium reactor..brightwell aquatics makes a magnesium supplement you can add to the aragonite in the calcium reactor...bumps up the mag. real nice..DD pro salt is a good product as well...has elevated mag. from the get go..

 

[jcw]

Nice pygmy.....really cool coraline algal growth...you should think about getting a calcium reactor..brightwell aquatics makes a magnesium supplement you can add to the aragonite in the calcium reactor...bumps up the mag. real nice..DD pro salt is a good product as well...has elevated mag. from the get go..

Thanks. Will look into calcium reactors.

I can't take credit for most of the coralline algae. The LR with most of it came from the guy that runs glassboxdesigns. He was moving and took down his tank.

This pic was from his f/s thread after he sold most of the good stuff. I took the rest.

I can't get the salifert mag test right, but after 100ml of kent's magnesium and a 12 gallon water change with RC salt, I think it read 1380, which is better than I thought it would be.
I think I'm going to lose the montipora on one of the rocks. Maybe they were too close to the LEDS.