Nitrate Dosing, Carbon Dosing, Po4 Remover...Still HA...

[reefgeezer]

A multi-pronged approach might be advisable.

1. Add clean-up crew to include Urchins
Some algae is always trying to pop up in healthy systems. You need things to keep it from getting out of hand.
2. Skim super wet and replace water with new ASW
This removes the most bad stuff possible. The additional new water helps the cause too.
3. Vodka and/or vinegar... it will work
4. Elbow grease... where possible remove the HA. You could remove any rocks that are possible to remove and scrub them with H2O2 also.
5. Run GFO & pay attention to when it is depleted

If you have HA, you have available nitrogen and phosphate regardless of whet your tests say. Don't add more. Quit adding stuff to "kill" the algae. Be patient.

 

[Horace]

A multi-pronged approach might be advisable.

1. Add clean-up crew to include Urchins
Some algae is always trying to pop up in healthy systems. You need things to keep it from getting out of hand.
2. Skim super wet and replace water with new ASW
This removes the most bad stuff possible. The additional new water helps the cause too.
3. Vodka and/or vinegar... it will work
4. Elbow grease... where possible remove the HA. You could remove any rocks that are possible to remove and scrub them with H2O2 also.
5. Run GFO & pay attention to when it is depleted

If you have HA, you have available nitrogen and phosphate regardless of whet your tests say. Don't add more. Quit adding stuff to "kill" the algae. Be patient.

Yeah... .ive done all that. I personally think my rock is the problem. Dry Marco rocks make up most of my rock. I suspect they are leaching a ton of po4, and the HA/RS out competes everything else.

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[five.five-six]

Try vibrant to eleasw the nutreant bound in the HA.

 

[ClownNut]

start from bottom.
what your no3 and po4 reading? dosing no3 and po4 will work, only if you are limited on one of those.
if you carbon dose, do you skim wet or dry? compare before carbon dose got more or about the same amount of skimmate.
you have sandbed? my old 180 with sand take a long time before carbon dose kicks in, but my 300 bb take no time for the carbon dose to kicks in.
also try not mix method, each tank is unique. if you want carbon dose, carbon dose and if you go gfo, go gfo. try to change one thing in the formula and give it enough time to do the job. i dont mean like a few days.
on cuc front, try some tuxedo urchin and rock urchin. i got 2(t) in my 34g and 6(2t4r) in my 300. i havent seen any type of algae beside coraline algae and few bubble algae here and there on my rock for years now.

 

[Jonesrd1]

I would suggest that you slowly increase your acetic acid dose and mix the vinegar into saturated kalk. My tank is going on four so still a baby but I add 80 mL to a water volume of 60 gallons. I have never had bacterial overgrowth but it took me six months to get to 80 mL. I also recommend adding the kalk saturated vinegar as a bolus first thing in the morning. I have had no visable HA for the last ~3 years. Also I have a very large CUC. No promises but it works for me. Ron

 

[netsequent]

I gotta say, I have never been more frustrated with this hobby. The thing is I KNOW its a nutrient problem, and I know all the normal ways to deal with them, but for some reason, I cannot seem to get it under control.

What are your tank inhabitants, what and how much do you feed?

Have you tested your RO/DI system?

 

[Horace]

What are your tank inhabitants, what and how much do you feed?

Have you tested your RO/DI system?

I have about 10 med to small fish. I feed about 2 cubes of food per day, or a few small pinches of flake or pellets.

No ive not tested my ro because i run ro/di. The tds meter reads 0 TDS, so im not thinking that can be the problem.

 

[Daddyrawg]

How long has your tank been up?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

What light are you using for the chaeto, & how many hours are you running it?

 

[Big E]

If you want to increase Nitrates to pull out PO4, I would remove the macro algae so it doesn't take up instantly the No3. Then start the vodka method to pull both the nitrate and Phosphate out together in ratio.

hope that made sense

This is good advice...............if you're going to carbon dose get rid of the algae filter. They don't work together.............algae competes with the corals and anaerobic bacteria that the carbon dosing is trying to populate at a higher level. This is why all the commercial bacterial systems will tell you to ditch the algae filter.

If you're going to go with an efficient algae filter than you're going to have to dose nitrates to get the algae filter to work at it's peak. Otherwise in most cases you'll continue to have limited nitrates. A lot of macro algae we use consumes at a rate that is 100-1 or higher.

The hair algae on the rocks is much more efficient when it has fronds that can catch detritus and fuel itself. You'll need to get that down to a level that snails and a tang if you have one, can keep ahead of it.

You went down the chemical road and the results were what was expected......short term eradication. You didn't address the problem just put a band-aid over it.

There are huge threads on Vibrant(bacterial route) as a way to kill it but you again need to ditch the algae filter. I don't think it's a good product to use on a continual basis as it's too efficient and will steal so much that it can affect the corals. Soooo, eventually you have to come up with an export system that will work. This comes down to knowing the limitations of each and using them correctly.

Your first step is to stop with the shotgun approach.

If you're looking at a bacterial system to use for steady state, I'd seriously consider Tropic Marin bacto balance. It's very simple(compared to zeo and others) not harsh and also inexpensive. It will keep a balanced ratio on your system without limiting P04 or N03.

 

[Horace]

How long has your tank been up?

Tank is 1 year old

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[Horace]

What light are you using for the chaeto, & how many hours are you running it?

The cheato actually got full of red slime and HA so i removed 90% of it. Im using 2 warm white led fixtures for lighting the outdoors. They are bright as hell. I run at night for 10 hrs.



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[Scrubber_steve]

The cheato actually got full of red slime and HA so i removed 90% of it. Im using 2 warm white led fixtures for lighting the outdoors. They are bright as hell. I run at night for 10 hrs.
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My thoughts are the battle between the algaes - hair & chaeto, & putting your chaeto in charge.
The hair has the advantage because it is faster metabolising - faster growing, & will take the necessary & valuable algae nutrients faster than the chaeto.

You need to creat the optimal environment in your fuge for your chaeto to thrive to its maximum potential, & out compete the hair. This, to me means getting a LED with the specific spectrum, predominently red 660nm, the optimal intensity (adjustable would be good, if only in height adjustment), & illumination period, which could be 24/7 illumination. at least for the duration.

I would also forget the PO4 remover & vinegar dosing (it hasn't worked) & let the chaeto use it.

Just my opinion, but it worked for me (algae scrubber).

 

[Horace]

My thoughts are the battle between the algaes - hair & chaeto, & putting your chaeto in charge.
The hair has the advantage because it is faster metabolising - faster growing, & will take the necessary & valuable algae nutrients faster than the chaeto.

You need to creat the optimal environment in your fuge for your chaeto to thrive to its maximum potential, & out compete the hair. This, to me means getting a LED with the specific spectrum, predominently red 660nm, the optimal intensity (adjustable would be good, if only in height adjustment), & illumination period, which could be 24/7 illumination. at least for the duration.

I would also forget the PO4 remover & vinegar dosing (it hasn't worked) & let the chaeto use it.

Just my opinion, but it worked for me (algae scrubber).

So i used to have an algae scrubber. It worked ok but was a maintenance nightmare. I was constantly messing with it. It was also very loud so i just removed it out if frustration.

I have contemplated getting one of the santamontica floating scrubbers, but dang those are expensive and still need an air pump (yet more noise).

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[Horace]

A multi-pronged approach might be advisable.

1. Add clean-up crew to include Urchins
Some algae is always trying to pop up in healthy systems. You need things to keep it from getting out of hand.
2. Skim super wet and replace water with new ASW
This removes the most bad stuff possible. The additional new water helps the cause too.
3. Vodka and/or vinegar... it will work
4. Elbow grease... where possible remove the HA. You could remove any rocks that are possible to remove and scrub them with H2O2 also.
5. Run GFO & pay attention to when it is depleted

If you have HA, you have available nitrogen and phosphate regardless of whet your tests say. Don't add more. Quit adding stuff to "kill" the algae. Be patient.

So besides testing for p04 with a hanna, how else do i know when the po4 remover is depleated? My tank water tests very low. Even my triton test showed ideal po4 levels in the water. Other than just being aggressive and replacing frequently, i dont know a good way to know.

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[reefgeezer]

So besides testing for p04 with a hanna, how else do i know when the po4 remover is depleated? My tank water tests very low. Even my triton test showed ideal po4 levels in the water. Other than just being aggressive and replacing frequently, i dont know a good way to know.

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Yea... where HA present, free phosphate usually tests low.

You might normally see an increase of film algae on the glass when phosphates start to rise due to depletion of the GFO. However, when HA is present, it may use any additional phosphate so you might never see any changes on the glass.

Unfortunately, there isn't an objective way to tell other than testing the output of the reactor as compared to the level in the DT. At low levels, even that's a crap shoot.

Your tank is a young. You're going to fight algae and other stuff until the system matures. My tank is in the same phase. I get mostly Cyano but luckily only a little hair algae. I let it get out of hand a while back believing what I read about higher nutrient levels being ok. I finally got tired of the ugliness and resolved to keep nutrients very low until the tank matures. Things are getting under control and the tank is looking better. Here's what I'm doing.

I wipe off anything that grows on the glass and overflow tower every couple of days and let a filter sock get it. I use a power head to blow detritus and any Cyano off the rocks and let the filter sock get it during weekly water changes. I change filter socks every few days. I even remove the rocks that are easy to get to and have no corals on them and scrub them with H202 occasionally. I dose 28 ml/day of vinegar. I dose potassium nitrate to keep the nitrate level detectable to allow the carbon dosing to remove some phosphate. I use 1/8th cup of GFO in a small, low flow reactor and change it weekly. I have two Tangs, some snails & hermit crabs, and an Urchin to help me out also. Generally, my nitrate tests show just a hint of nitrate on my Salifert kit and my phosphates are zero to maybe .03 ppm per my Hanna ULR. With very little algae or Cyano in the tank to use nutrients now , I think those readings are pretty true. My SPS corals are growing ok, but not very colorful. That's ok with me for now, I can get them to color up after the tank matures.

I'm not saying you should do the same. I just wanted to pass on my experiences.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

So i used to have an algae scrubber. It worked ok but was a maintenance nightmare. I was constantly messing with it. It was also very loud so i just removed it out if frustration.

I have contemplated getting one of the santamontica floating scrubbers, but dang those are expensive and still need an air pump (yet more noise).

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I never said a word about changing to a scrubber?

 

[Horace]

Yea... where HA present, free phosphate usually tests low.

You might normally see an increase of film algae on the glass when phosphates start to rise due to depletion of the GFO. However, when HA is present, it may use any additional phosphate so you might never see any changes on the glass.

Unfortunately, there isn't an objective way to tell other than testing the output of the reactor as compared to the level in the DT. At low levels, even that's a crap shoot.

Your tank is a young. You're going to fight algae and other stuff until the system matures. My tank is in the same phase. I get mostly Cyano but luckily only a little hair algae. I let it get out of hand a while back believing what I read about higher nutrient levels being ok. I finally got tired of the ugliness and resolved to keep nutrients very low until the tank matures. Things are getting under control and the tank is looking better. Here's what I'm doing.

I wipe off anything that grows on the glass and overflow tower every couple of days and let a filter sock get it. I use a power head to blow detritus and any Cyano off the rocks and let the filter sock get it during weekly water changes. I change filter socks every few days. I even remove the rocks that are easy to get to and have no corals on them and scrub them with H202 occasionally. I dose 28 ml/day of vinegar. I dose potassium nitrate to keep the nitrate level detectable to allow the carbon dosing to remove some phosphate. I use 1/8th cup of GFO in a small, low flow reactor and change it weekly. I have two Tangs, some snails & hermit crabs, and an Urchin to help me out also. Generally, my nitrate tests show just a hint of nitrate on my Salifert kit and my phosphates are zero to maybe .03 ppm per my Hanna ULR. With very little algae or Cyano in the tank to use nutrients now , I think those readings are pretty true. My SPS corals are growing ok, but not very colorful. That's ok with me for now, I can get them to color up after the tank matures.

I'm not saying you should do the same. I just wanted to pass on my experiences.

Your routine sounds precisely what i was doing. My SPS look just OK....def not what im used to. Funny, my last tank i had to add nutrients, this tank has too many.....so frustrating. Oddly i didnt ha e to go through nearly this level of effort to get rid of po4 previously. What sucks is to get my nutrients to a level that the HA stops hurts my corals....its a no win situation lol

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[Horace]

I never said a word about changing to a scrubber?

You didnt, but ive tried pretty much everything you have mentioned. I may try reworking the lighting a bit in my sump though.

While you didnt suggest it...i do think a ATS is something that would help...i just couldn't deal with how loud mine was. I had a spray bar design and i was constantly cleaning the holes and the sound of the water leaving the box was like water constantly going down a sink drain. So annoying! I probably should have went with simpler is better and go with the basic design where the screen goes into the water to avoid the waterfall sound. I was just paranoid about the spraybar getting plugged and squirting water on my floor.

Here was my ATS..

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[Scrubber_steve]

You didnt, but ive tried pretty much everything you have mentioned. I may try reworking the lighting a bit in my sump though.

While you didnt suggest it...i do think a ATS is something that would help...i just couldn't deal with how loud mine was. I had a spray bar design and i was constantly cleaning the holes and the sound of the water leaving the box was like water constantly going down a sink drain. So annoying! I probably should have went with simpler is better and go with the basic design where the screen goes into the water to avoid the waterfall sound. I was just paranoid about the spraybar getting plugged and squirting water on my floor.

Here was my ATS..

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Yes, a scrubber is more effective. Sorry, but I believe you were warned that the holes in the spray bar would need a lot of maintenance. And yes, the water running down a screen into the water is quiter than piping.
Good luck with it.