Nitrate in the aquarium
- Thread starter Cody Ray
- Start date
wayne in norway
New member
The only stuff I've seen is fish mortality with nitrates in the 1000's.
I'm not kidding, and I'm not saying this to be very provocative, but I simply haven't seen any kinds of controlled numbers. I'll try googling....
I'm not kidding, and I'm not saying this to be very provocative, but I simply haven't seen any kinds of controlled numbers. I'll try googling....
RichConley
New member
Decay is, by nature, bacterial. Theres no reason that bacteria would choose NOT to eat this detritus while the rock wasnt cooking.
Wayne, the only negative thing I've ever seen from nitrates is some SPS browning, and nitrates wont cause that until you start getting in the range of 100.
Nitrite isnt even harmful in saltwater... nitrate... dont worry about it.
glassbox-design
New member
rich, no one is saying otherwise, but by removing it from the tank and other "food sources" they are "forced" to feed from the rock... it also eliminate algaes and photosynthetic life from the picture which are capable of using the nutrients from the rock...
i honestly dont think nitrate is the demon we make it out to be. imo we view it that way because tanks that generally have higher nitrate have other issues, e.g. po4, nitrite, organics etc...
i find my sps have their best coloration at ~5ppm no3...with p so low, if no3 is going to be zero it must be supplemented with organic nitrogen e.g. amino acids, pappone, fish food.
jmo
RichConley
New member
Again, you're making bacteria out to be something theyre not.
If food is available, they will reproduce until there is no food available. If they are able to eat something, they will, whether or not there is other food available. These things can double population in hours. You can't force them to feed from the rock, because if theyre able, they already are feeding from the rock.
"it also eliminate algaes and photosynthetic life from the picture which are capable of using the nutrients from the rock.."
Thats what I believe is actually happening. Photosynthetic stuff is dying off and the algae is eating that.
tperk9784
New member
quote:
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Bomber wrote
Back to square one.
You have to establish the different layers of bacteria in order to accomplish what you're trying to do.
You have to have the anaerobic (no o2) area and bacteria in the middle to eat the organics that will be found there chemically bound to the calcium carbonate.
You have to have the aerobic (has O2) area and bacteria on top of that to consume the left overs that the anaerobic bacteria produce and continue to move it to the surface of the rock.
Get you a big enough tub to hold all the rock. Put a power head in it to keep it aerated and let it sit until it's cleaned up in the dark. Dunk and swish it every now and then to remove detritus that would just break down and continue the cycle, and move them into new clean water and start again.
What you killed in the rock will release nutrients again. You're going to need the bacteria to move it out of the rock for you. By cleaning the tub and water they are in, you're forcing them to use more and more of the food in the rock - thus cleaning the rocks better and better.
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This is what were talking about. I don't think were making something out to be something it is not. I am sure the bacteria are eating some of the food in and on the rocks at all times. but when other food sources are available they will use that 1st.
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Bomber wrote
Back to square one.
You have to establish the different layers of bacteria in order to accomplish what you're trying to do.
You have to have the anaerobic (no o2) area and bacteria in the middle to eat the organics that will be found there chemically bound to the calcium carbonate.
You have to have the aerobic (has O2) area and bacteria on top of that to consume the left overs that the anaerobic bacteria produce and continue to move it to the surface of the rock.
Get you a big enough tub to hold all the rock. Put a power head in it to keep it aerated and let it sit until it's cleaned up in the dark. Dunk and swish it every now and then to remove detritus that would just break down and continue the cycle, and move them into new clean water and start again.
What you killed in the rock will release nutrients again. You're going to need the bacteria to move it out of the rock for you. By cleaning the tub and water they are in, you're forcing them to use more and more of the food in the rock - thus cleaning the rocks better and better.
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This is what were talking about. I don't think were making something out to be something it is not. I am sure the bacteria are eating some of the food in and on the rocks at all times. but when other food sources are available they will use that 1st.
glassbox-design
New member
exactly....
rich, you're right...and it only proves the point further. by eliminating other sources, in order to survive it must feed on the nutrients within the rock.
interesting to hear about cyano...perhaps a cyano refugium for high nutrient tanks :lol:
eric
rich, you're right...and it only proves the point further. by eliminating other sources, in order to survive it must feed on the nutrients within the rock.
interesting to hear about cyano...perhaps a cyano refugium for high nutrient tanks :lol:
eric
kolokefalo
New member
Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter do not reproduce as quickly as many heterotrophic bacteria. This is why you see cyano blooms in newly set up tanks. The bacteria have not colonized enough to keep up and the cyano blooms to compensate.
Furthermore, nitrifying bacteria are photosensitive and many people leave their MH or T5s on while cycling and tis is also counter productive.
Furthermore, nitrifying bacteria are photosensitive and many people leave their MH or T5s on while cycling and tis is also counter productive.
wayne in norway
New member
Googling nitrate toxicity makes for quite interesting reading, but it's all about advers effects on fish fry. You do get to some interesting links on comparative properties of seawater and tankwater wrt. dissolved O2 and DOC's in general. More reading required methinks. I'm also trying to get hold of some thin sections of biogenic limestones to look at the pore properties.
I fear a cyano refugium would impractical - they can fix their own nitrogen, and only very small amounts of waste can produce fantastic volumes of cyano.
I fear a cyano refugium would impractical - they can fix their own nitrogen, and only very small amounts of waste can produce fantastic volumes of cyano.
Cody Ray
New member
I've always viewed cooking rock as a way of ridding it of built up detritus. Rock only has so much surface area and if we as aquarists provide more food than it can handle then there will be a build up. So by cooking it you allow the bacterial colonies to process the current detritus.
Also I took a piece of figi liverock and broke it in half. It was VERY white. No smell, sediment, or black areas. IMO all rock is different. I have also seen pieces that were black.
Also I took a piece of figi liverock and broke it in half. It was VERY white. No smell, sediment, or black areas. IMO all rock is different. I have also seen pieces that were black.
Aquarist007
New member
I have been following this thread since the beginning--very interesting.
I have always thought that the reason for adding cured live rock but not cooked live rock was to initiate the nitrogen cycling process--the rock providing both dead stuff and bacteria.
Using cooked will and or base rock will eventually cycle but take a lot longer
I would not want to be setting a tank up for the first time and waiting three months for it to cycle-----the six weeks was agony enough for me
I have always thought that the reason for adding cured live rock but not cooked live rock was to initiate the nitrogen cycling process--the rock providing both dead stuff and bacteria.
Using cooked will and or base rock will eventually cycle but take a lot longer
I would not want to be setting a tank up for the first time and waiting three months for it to cycle-----the six weeks was agony enough for me
tperk9784
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10349066#post10349066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I have been following this thread since the beginning--very interesting.
I have always thought that the reason for adding cured live rock but not cooked live rock was to initiate the nitrogen cycling process--the rock providing both dead stuff and bacteria.
Using cooked will and or base rock will eventually cycle but take a lot longer
I would not want to be setting a tank up for the first time and waiting three months for it to cycle-----the six weeks was agony enough for me
Cooked rock already has a well established bio filter as it has been performing biological filtration the entire cooking process. As Rich pointed out bacterial populations grow when the available food source grows as well.
Even an empty tank can cycle if given the proper food for the bacteria, the rock just gives more surface area for that bacteria to populate. and likewise an empty tank has enough surface area to perform a limited amount of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate conversion.
I wonder if anyone ever used larger rocks in a freshwater aquarium experienced a reduction in nitrate levels.
Aquarist007
New member
fresh water--same process--different adapting bacteria then salt.
I think I have read somewhere??? that you can throw in live rock from a salt tank and eventually it will be enhabited by fresh water bactera--not sure on this--maybe someone knows
Wow what an interesting read. There are new things to think about now.
As far as the LA vs. world diversity it would be statistically the same. The key word was random. Both sample sizes are large enough. You could probably use 1000 from each and still get a representation of diversity.
As far as diversity on LR people often discuss diversity but instead they should be discussing the role in the environment. One tank could have 5 species of sponges and another have 2. The first tank would have greater diversity but the role of the sponges has not changed. Yes we like sponges and some people think they are interesting but most would be interested in their role of filtering the water.
As far as the LA vs. world diversity it would be statistically the same. The key word was random. Both sample sizes are large enough. You could probably use 1000 from each and still get a representation of diversity.
As far as diversity on LR people often discuss diversity but instead they should be discussing the role in the environment. One tank could have 5 species of sponges and another have 2. The first tank would have greater diversity but the role of the sponges has not changed. Yes we like sponges and some people think they are interesting but most would be interested in their role of filtering the water.
wooden_reefer
New member
I don't know the answer as to whether nitrogen fixation is important in entirely submerged substrate, or in the middle of the water column.
One has to consider that the solubility of N2 gas in water is quite low. How does N2 get to water several feet deep?
But may be it does somehow.
Holygrail45
New member
What an amazing thread. I just read 4 pages and Im exhausted but ready to start trying some things out. Im a little over a year into this hobby, but I can safely say that I dedicate a signicant portion of my time to my tank.
One thing I read in here made me think....is it advised or ill advised to purchase one of these magnetic powerheads to the tank, point it into the direction of deep and hard to reach areas that have not seen a gravel sweep in 8+ months, to try and get that stuff to get blown out and floating long enough to get sucked through down into the sump to get caught up my my filter fabric and skimmer?
Would that russeling up be harmful to my coral/inverts/fish?
The owner of my lfs advised me against doing deep gravel vacum sweeps to keep my level of substrate denitification bacteria away from oxygen in the water. Would this counter that advice, thus creating less ditrification in my tank?
One thing I read in here made me think....is it advised or ill advised to purchase one of these magnetic powerheads to the tank, point it into the direction of deep and hard to reach areas that have not seen a gravel sweep in 8+ months, to try and get that stuff to get blown out and floating long enough to get sucked through down into the sump to get caught up my my filter fabric and skimmer?
Would that russeling up be harmful to my coral/inverts/fish?
The owner of my lfs advised me against doing deep gravel vacum sweeps to keep my level of substrate denitification bacteria away from oxygen in the water. Would this counter that advice, thus creating less ditrification in my tank?
I do agree with your LFS owner but not for the reason (oxygen) that you speculate. I don't vacuum because I have enough life in my sand that it stays clean.
Blowing over the sand (a delicate business that) won't oxygenate the denitrifying bacteria, either. It will get any detritus into the water column for extraction by other means. Suspension is the solution of choice for many who prefer a bare-bottom tank or have the physical size to handle the water flow necessary when sand is present; in a smaller tank, getting that amount of water moving often results in getting sand moving too. It's a balancing game.
My main issue with a powerhead to do the job is that it is one more piece of equipment. If that piece of equipment is needed, then its job might be better handled by different husbandry. I use a cleanup crew to get those hard to reach places. A turkey baster is also very effective and allows us the time to consider what might be creating all that detritus in the first place.
More central, though, is why we get a buildup of detritus. This is the question I try to answer as soon as I notice that more detritus is accumulating than I want. I am not sure how much is bad but I do try to get it dealt with on a timely basis.
Again, with the right kinds of critters in a cleanup crew, the detritus on the sand bed or in the rocks just doesn't become an issue for me.
Blowing over the sand (a delicate business that) won't oxygenate the denitrifying bacteria, either. It will get any detritus into the water column for extraction by other means. Suspension is the solution of choice for many who prefer a bare-bottom tank or have the physical size to handle the water flow necessary when sand is present; in a smaller tank, getting that amount of water moving often results in getting sand moving too. It's a balancing game.
My main issue with a powerhead to do the job is that it is one more piece of equipment. If that piece of equipment is needed, then its job might be better handled by different husbandry. I use a cleanup crew to get those hard to reach places. A turkey baster is also very effective and allows us the time to consider what might be creating all that detritus in the first place.
More central, though, is why we get a buildup of detritus. This is the question I try to answer as soon as I notice that more detritus is accumulating than I want. I am not sure how much is bad but I do try to get it dealt with on a timely basis.
Again, with the right kinds of critters in a cleanup crew, the detritus on the sand bed or in the rocks just doesn't become an issue for me.
wooden_reefer
New member
Could part of the detritus be just dust in the air?
We see large balls of dust in places we have not cleaned for a long time. Where do they go in an aquarium?
We see large balls of dust in places we have not cleaned for a long time. Where do they go in an aquarium?
glassbox-design
New member
wooden, i'd say air within our homes plays a larger issue with our tanks then we may realize. especially for those who run ac 24/7.
as for detritus and shedding, you'd be amazed at how much our rocks shed....
i personally notice lots of detritus from my rocks comes from boring inverts and worms. nothing i can really do about it.
eric
as for detritus and shedding, you'd be amazed at how much our rocks shed....
i personally notice lots of detritus from my rocks comes from boring inverts and worms. nothing i can really do about it.
eric
